Urban Deer Management

[Guest Wes]

I think I am in favour of the urban deer hunt but I would like to throw a few points out there and see if we can get a discussion going. I thought I was all for the herd management, but now I am on the fence.

This is the way I see it. The deer within the city limits are a nuisance, flat out. They cause property damage, numerous vehicle collisions, and during the rutt, could be dangerous. These are all good reasons to remove them. I am not in favour of trap and release. That is just assigning the problem to someone else in the way of more highway collisions, which can potentially be fatal.

That being said, we now live in a “You Tube” society and guaranteed someone is going to post something that won’t shed a positive light on Hunters in general. Someone is bound to have a not so well placed shot, then we have wounded deer wondering around town with arrows sticking out them. Not exactly the image of responsible hunting. Stuff happens. The media will be all over it. I say 1 week tops.

I just can’t see how this can be avoided unless it is only a select few doing the hunting. Individuals who are proven bow hunters and can be held accountable for their actions.

I would really like to get off the fence and see these deer removed from the city. Once removed and with stiff fines for feeding, they should not return in such numbers.

Thoughts?

BTW, I am not a bow hunter so I am not lobbing for my own private hunt.

[Kayaker 38]

I agree that a select deer hunt is in order, also it should be available to those that are proven hunters. Feeding of deer should not be allowed by residence on any highway area. If the deer are going to die better by archery then my 2 chevs, 1 dodge and 1 ford. ouch!!!

[Fisherman08 6]

Being a proven hunter doesn't mean that there is going to be a quick kill, and how does anyone even begin to start proving that one person over another is a Proven hunter. Too many variables could and would come into play even for the proven marksman/bow hunter.

There is no quick fix on this problem, wild animals are and will go where ever they want that's just nature in it's self. Look at the bear problems. And for that matter look at the moose problems in Newfoundland/Labrador.

And how or where does the City or Ministry try to figure out where would the best place be to hunt.

I think that maybe:

1) we need some what of a harsh winter or two to allow nature take its course on the herd.

and

2) Maybe the MNR needs to increase the alotted surplus tags to 6 instead of 3.

Maybe maybe not, just my thoughts and .02cents worth.

[Guest Wes]

Being a proven hunter doesn't mean that there is going to be a quick kill, and how does anyone even begin to start proving that one person over another is a Proven hunter. Too many variables could and would come into play even for the proven marksman/bow hunter.

Agree, Stuff happens even to the best of archers. And really how do you choose? Set up a target and the first X amount of people to get 5/5 or 10/10 in a 3in kill zone? Who, knows?

And how or where does the City or Ministry try to figure out where would the best place be to hunt.

I think they were talking 75 meters from any dwelling, but the last blurb I read somewhere was about decreasing that. Not sure I want to wake up and see my neighbor sitting on my shed waiting for a deer to roam through my yard. HA!

1) we need some what of a harsh winter or two to allow nature take its course on the herd.

and

2) Maybe the MNR needs to increase the alotted surplus tags to 6 instead of 3.

The last couple winters have been pretty cold. Unfortunately we need 10 feet of snow to slow them down for the wolves to really take a bite out of crime.

But the problem is urban deer. We certainly don't want the wolves in the city limits hunting deer.

I am starting to think the urban hunt is a bad idea.

Thanks for starting the discussion.

Wes

[tracker 61]

Yes the issue is urban deer. Waiting for mother nature??? We have seen what is accomplished when mother nature with the help of individuals who feed them, they populate like weeds. Urban deer hunts have been happening all over North America.

As for "You Tube" or any media, we only see what people choose to show. I watched a show on TV that all they showed was car crashes for 30 minutes. Have you ever seen a 30 minute episode that showed millions of cars driving daily that never crashed, of course not.

Wes, I hope you are not being swayed by the interview that our radio station played all afternoon yesterday. It was a spokes person for PETA who stated that archery was not a humane way of dispatching an animal as the hunter spends hours tracking it after it has been shot.

I am not an archery hunter but am all in favour of an urban hunt for deer management.

[naden 136]

I dont really have any interest in archery hunting or hunting in an urban setting. With that being said, I dont see a problem with having an urban hunt if carried out correctly. From what I have heard so far the hunters will have to be a certain distance from property lines and buildings and in a tree stand so that arrows are pointed downwards. Makes sense to me. I somewhat doubt the amount of deer being harvested will be enough to make much of a dent in the population though. There will be no extra tags available for this hunt so if you fill your tag for wmu 13 in town there is one less deer being harvested elsewhere in the area. Even if the mnr did issue even more additional tags for wmu 13 i somewhat doubt the majority of hunters would fill all of their tags. I also dont think shooting off all the deer in say the oliver road area or any of the fringe areas around town will help eliminate deer in areas such as balmoral, boulevard, centennial, mission island, grain elevators etc.

However, Im sure there are many archery hunters who would enjoy this opportunity especially with the high price of fuel, and harvesting some deer certainly isnt going to make the problem worse. The cost of implementation is probably low and it may even generate some extra revenue for the mnr. I say go for it.

[naden 136]

Also I think the wolves are already here in town. I have seen some deer killed by wolves in the trowbridge and cascades area. My sister in law saw a large wolf near centennial park yesterday in the afternoon.

[Guest jsmatthe]

I think they were talking 75 meters from any dwelling, but the last blurb I read somewhere was about decreasing that. Not sure I want to wake up and see my neighbor sitting on my shed waiting for a deer to roam through my yard. HA!

Wes

[Guest Wes]

As for "You Tube" or any media, we only see what people choose to show. I watched a show on TV that all they showed was car crashes for 30 minutes. Have you ever seen a 30 minute episode that showed millions of cars driving daily that never crashed, of course not.

That's just it, no one would post a video of a properly dispatched deer. Unless they shot the video themselves. If a hunt doesn't go according to plan and it happens to get caught on someone cell phone, then posted. It is just going to put a black mark on the big picture. The good that is actually done will be viewed in a negative light. I may be over analyzing this point.

What I am trying to get at is there are going to be some right wing wack jobs (PETA) looking and hoping this experiment goes badly then they can publicize it to the nth degree. So if it does get voted in, I would hope the participants would take that extra time to ensure things go smoothly.

Wes, I hope you are not being swayed by the interview that our radio station played all afternoon yesterday. It was a spokes person for PETA who stated that archery was not a humane way of dispatching an animal as the hunter spends hours tracking it after it has been shot.

If the radio isn't blasting Metal, I am not listening to it. So no I did not catch the broadcast. Anything PETA says I tend to go the other way anyway.

Naden, I know they are in the city. numerous sightings, and deer kills.

Not sure why I think I have to choose a side, I can just sit up here on my fence and look down at people. HA! I wasn't going to participate if it gets voted in anyway.

Either way, good discussion so far, and good points being made.

jsmatthe, I thought it was tbnewswatch or chronical journal, but I can not find what I read. I'll look again and post the link if I find it.

[Bobber Down 921]

I think I am in favour of the urban deer hunt but I would like to throw a few points out there and see if we can get a discussion going. I thought I was all for the herd management, but now I am on the fence.

This is the way I see it. The deer within the city limits are a nuisance, flat out. They cause property damage, numerous vehicle collisions, and during the rutt, could be dangerous. These are all good reasons to remove them. I am not in favour of trap and release. That is just assigning the problem to someone else in the way of more highway collisions, which can potentially be fatal.

That being said, we now live in a “You Tube” society and guaranteed someone is going to post something that won’t shed a positive light on Hunters in general. Someone is bound to have a not so well placed shot, then we have wounded deer wondering around town with arrows sticking out them. Not exactly the image of responsible hunting. Stuff happens. The media will be all over it. I say 1 week tops.

I just can’t see how this can be avoided unless it is only a select few doing the hunting. Individuals who are proven bow hunters and can be held accountable for their actions.

I would really like to get off the fence and see these deer removed from the city. Once removed and with stiff fines for feeding, they should not return in such numbers.

Thoughts?

BTW, I am not a bow hunter so I am not lobbing for my own private hunt.

Back in the early 50's I remember my dad packing up my brothers and I for a Sunday drive. It was a special treat back then to be able to get an ice cream cone and motor over to the old jack-knife bridge off south Syndicate Ave and venture into the Mission Marsh area with the hopes of seeing a deer or two. Many times there would be a line-up of cars waiting to cross that bridge if a boat happened to be passing by. To a little kid it was always an adventure. Ice cream, bridge, boats, and maybe an apple or two to entice an eager deer closer. Today, well today there are hundreds upon hundreds of deer and we see them in every corner of the city and stretching out into the country for many many miles.

My job takes me to every nook and crany in Thunder Bay and I drive this city a conservative estimate of 100,000K per year. Well over a million K in the last 10 years. It never surprises me anymore where I see them/deer. From the Waterfront to the Airport, quiet residential streets to the busy Harbour Expressway, the University to Boulavard Lake they are everywhere. For petes sake even the guards at Thunder Bay Terminals call them by "name" and feed them nightly. While driving by L.U. one afternoon a young girl was feeding a doe from her outstretched hand as if it was a chipmunk. They feed at night in front of the police station.

People like seeing the deer but don't see the big picture/problem the city now faces. It's been over 50 years in the making.

CULL THE HERD, easier said than done. Think you could get permission from CN or CP to hunt on their land? Not likely. Get permission from T.B. Terminals to hunt on their property. Not likely either. Get a permit from the city to hunt residential streets. Never gonna happen. Get permission from L.U. or the College to cull the herd on their lands. Forget it man, not gonna happen. Set up tree stands around and in Boulavard Lake. Not very likely either. Knock on residential doors in town and ask permission to shoot a deer in their back yard and you will probably have the police behind you with the disco lights flashing. The LIABILITY FACTOR is just to great for anyone to take a chance that you are a good shot and won't miss. Even if you are in a tree stand, shooting down.

Here's a senario. The deer is hit but runs, as many do, and makes it, bleeding out, to say, where? Lets choose Wal-Mart parking lot. The deer is bleating in pain, blood everwhere, an arrow in it. Along comes Mom with little Sara. Poor little Sara. Here's another one, this time at Boulavard Lake. Mom and Sara are walking their dog enjoying the sunny day when Bambi comes stumbling out of the brush and dies in front of her. Out of the bush runs a huge man, dressed in camo waving a bow and carrying a big knife. Would you want your little one to witness that. Use any location you like in town that we see deer. There are always kids close by. I remember when I was little and watched Bambi for the first time. I cried for hours when the mother was killed. All I knew was that mommy was dead. We can't let our little ones witness that first hand, I don't think. I wouldn't want my granddaughter to see that.

The deer are here because we allowed them to be here. We fed them. We took pictures of them. Some give them names others protect them. I have had visitors pay me to take them where they can see deer. Many havn't even seen a live deer. They are perhaps in some ways a city attraction. Some people find them annoying when they eat their gardens or trees. Some people get in collisions with them which perhaps is why all this talk about culling the herd started in the first place. Wolves will get some, the winter will get some but the herd is way to large now for this to create a significant decrease in the city proper population. Kill a hundred, kill two hundred and more will just move in from the outskirts of town. Its safer here, warmer and plenty of food.

I read talk about FINES. Lets call the deer cops and spend more taxpayers dollars for city employees to investigate whether someone may be feeding a deer or not on their private property. Seriously, its way to late for that.

Here's a thought. SLOW DOWN - BE AWARE while driving. Understand we share the roads with them. Where theres one theres more. Treat them as if it was a kid riding a bike on one of our "wonderful" new bike lanes. Watch for them. We all know they are there and we don't want to hit them. Iv'e never hit one. Has anyone heard of any deer attacks on people in Thunder Bay. I havn't. SLOW DOWN - BE AWARE - STAY SAFE...............just my opinion

[tracker 61]

Just Google "Urban deer hunting". This is not something that Thunder Bay has just thought up. It has been happening all around our sheltered little bubble we call our city.

[Guest fancy pants]

Those are interesting points. I think I agree.

[Guest Wes]

Hi Wes

I noticed your letter to the editor this morning. I know and agree that feeding the deer should stop. NOW!!! What I don’t know is if you are against the culling of the deer in the city? I know they want to do that because of motor vehicle accidents (1.6 per day in the TB District) and my whining about my garden isn’t of interest to the city. I have attached a picture of why I am all for it. We weren’t in our garden for 4 days and it is like a bomb has went off in it. The damn deer are even sleeping in the yard now, as well as eating everything in sight. We went to dig our carrots and they had done it for us, not one left in the ground.

The massacred tree picture is of one that I started from seed many years ago, kept in pot for years (over 10) and planted it out last spring. This is all I have left after all that.

Just saying I HATE THE DAMN DEER!!!

Interested in your opinion.

This is an email I got from a former co-worker. She is a sweet little lady in her 60’s. Her gardens have been featured in many garden type magazines. I would have never expected her stance on the urban hunt. Granted, it is for her own personal reasons and not the larger picture but still an interesting response. If she is FOR it, maybe there are more like her with the same opinion.

[Travis Schallock 28]

Back in the early 50's I remember my dad packing up my brothers and I for a Sunday drive. It was a special treat back then to be able to get an ice cream cone and motor over to the old jack-knife bridge off south Syndicate Ave and venture into the Mission Marsh area with the hopes of seeing a deer or two. Many times there would be a line-up of cars waiting to cross that bridge if a boat happened to be passing by. To a little kid it was always an adventure. Ice cream, bridge, boats, and maybe an apple or two to entice an eager deer closer. Today, well today there are hundreds upon hundreds of deer and we see them in every corner of the city and stretching out into the country for many many miles.

My job takes me to every nook and crany in Thunder Bay and I drive this city a conservative estimate of 100,000K per year. Well over a million K in the last 10 years. It never surprises me anymore where I see them/deer. From the Waterfront to the Airport, quiet residential streets to the busy Harbour Expressway, the University to Boulavard Lake they are everywhere. For petes sake even the guards at Thunder Bay Terminals call them by "name" and feed them nightly. While driving by L.U. one afternoon a young girl was feeding a doe from her outstretched hand as if it was a chipmunk. They feed at night in front of the police station.

People like seeing the deer but don't see the big picture/problem the city now faces. It's been over 50 years in the making.

CULL THE HERD, easier said than done. Think you could get permission from CN or CP to hunt on their land? Not likely. Get permission from T.B. Terminals to hunt on their property. Not likely either. Get a permit from the city to hunt residential streets. Never gonna happen. Get permission from L.U. or the College to cull the herd on their lands. Forget it man, not gonna happen. Set up tree stands around and in Boulavard Lake. Not very likely either. Knock on residential doors in town and ask permission to shoot a deer in their back yard and you will probably have the police behind you with the disco lights flashing. The LIABILITY FACTOR is just to great for anyone to take a chance that you are a good shot and won't miss. Even if you are in a tree stand, shooting down.

Here's a senario. The deer is hit but runs, as many do, and makes it, bleeding out, to say, where? Lets choose Wal-Mart parking lot. The deer is bleating in pain, blood everwhere, an arrow in it. Along comes Mom with little Sara. Poor little Sara. Here's another one, this time at Boulavard Lake. Mom and Sara are walking their dog enjoying the sunny day when Bambi comes stumbling out of the brush and dies in front of her. Out of the bush runs a huge man, dressed in camo waving a bow and carrying a big knife. Would you want your little one to witness that. Use any location you like in town that we see deer. There are always kids close by. I remember when I was little and watched Bambi for the first time. I cried for hours when the mother was killed. All I knew was that mommy was dead. We can't let our little ones witness that first hand, I don't think. I wouldn't want my granddaughter to see that.

The deer are here because we allowed them to be here. We fed them. We took pictures of them. Some give them names others protect them. I have had visitors pay me to take them where they can see deer. Many havn't even seen a live deer. They are perhaps in some ways a city attraction. Some people find them annoying when they eat their gardens or trees. Some people get in collisions with them which perhaps is why all this talk about culling the herd started in the first place. Wolves will get some, the winter will get some but the herd is way to large now for this to create a significant decrease in the city proper population. Kill a hundred, kill two hundred and more will just move in from the outskirts of town. Its safer here, warmer and plenty of food.

I read talk about FINES. Lets call the deer cops and spend more taxpayers dollars for city employees to investigate whether someone may be feeding a deer or not on their private property. Seriously, its way to late for that.

Here's a thought. SLOW DOWN - BE AWARE while driving. Understand we share the roads with them. Where theres one theres more. Treat them as if it was a kid riding a bike on one of our "wonderful" new bike lanes. Watch for them. We all know they are there and we don't want to hit them. Iv'e never hit one. Has anyone heard of any deer attacks on people in Thunder Bay. I havn't. SLOW DOWN - BE AWARE - STAY SAFE...............just my opinion

I don't disagree with anything of the points you brought up, they are 100% valid. I agree that hunting in the city is going to have all kinds of logistical problems. Perhaps the 75m rule would keep most of the hunters on the outskirts of the city like I'm sure it was intended to do. However here are a couple of other scenarios from the opposite side of the spectrum. Mom is taking Sara out to see some deer on Mission Island, a few of them are stumbling around disoriented for apparently no reason. The next weekend there are more, some are dead/dying on the side of the road, ravens pecking at them. There has been a CWD outbreak and most of the hundreds of deer are going to suffer until they die. What would mom tell Sara then? Or even worse. Sara lives near the edge of town. She is outside playing with friends in the snow, running around, having fun. A hungry wolf sees the children playing and mistakes them for prey and one of them goes missing. The wolves were very well fed with all the deer in and around town, but they have died off from disease, and the wolves are still hungry and just doing what they need to in order to survive. The scenarios we have both described are from both sides, but are all completely possible. I would rather just tell my children that all of things we eat used to be alive, if it comes from the store or if we get it ourselves, that is were food comes from.

Again, I don't mean to take aim at you, your points are very good.

[Guest jackfish pete]

There was something useful on CBC radio (for once) about this. There was someone from Atikokan that describes the sarcotic mange outbreaks that often occur when deer (followed by wolves) come too close to town.

Mange doesn't just make the wolves act agressively, it can be spread to pets as well.

[BuckNut 4]

There's been some very good points raised here.

My opinion: A ban on feeding won't have much effect, unless there is also

a ban on gardens,lawns,shrubs,cedar trees,apple trees,etc.

If they allow a cull in city limits it should be does ONLY, and allow the shooters to take as many does as they can. After all they are the breeders. There would have to be hundreds taken to have a noticeable effect. Taking bucks out of the herd (even though that is what most of us would prefer to shoot), will have virtually no effect. Hopefully this would not be a money grab for the MNR, and I also hope that if it is allowed there isn't a mad rush at the archery stores, resulting in a lot of archers out there not knowing what they are doing.

If there only was a way to sterilize all those does the problem would solve itself!

[Guest Wes]

I say if it is brown, it's down. A doe can only get pregnant once a year. A buck can impregnate as many doe as he can find, every year.

I don't know the logistic for something like this, but one way to ensure you have competent archers out there is to have a test of some kind. At least from the word GO you won't have a bunch of yahoo out there.

[brookiebuster 117]

I dont think the numbers of deer will decrease that much if the MNR only gives out a X ammount of tags to only certain "proven" hunters.Deer are like rats,take 1 out 5 more will replace it.I think that the MNR should keep giving out tags(antlerless;I see way more does that bucks around town)untill there is a noticeable drop in the population.If you ban feeding them,there will still be that one person that thinks it's ok to feed that one deer.There should be stiff fines for anyone who is seen feeding deer.When deer eat mostly "human" foods their digestion gets messed up,and when a fawn is born it learns that the city is a good place to get food.So if the hunt starts ASAP we will help the new fawns relize that the city aint too good and they would probally head out of dodge.Im all in favor of a city hunt,I got alot of deer Ive been eyeing up in my yard,I even gave them names such as sausage,steak and roast.

Chris

[Guest mucky]

This has been a very good thread thus far with lots of good points on both sides. Im not a deer hunter or an archery hunter so I will not be partaking in the urban hunt. I agree with what "still learning" had to say about it was the people of Thunder Bay that let the deer population get this bad and that it has taken place over the past many years. Unfortunatly I dont agree with the rational about his thoughts about deer wandering around town with arrows sticking out of them frightening the general public. I do not care how slow you go, if a deer springs out, you have no chance. I am one of the unfortunate people who has had to make a claim with the insurance company for hitting a deer in town, and no I was not speeding in anyway. I cannot see why little Sara would be anymore traumatized from seeing a deer with an arrow sticking out of it than watching the deer crawl away on its two front legs, after I broke its back with my truck, into a public park awaiting there as a police officer lined up and blasted it in the head while on lookers stood by. I love to to hunt and this was even hard for me to watch. Either way its an awful site to see, but unfortunatly it is going to happen in both aspects. I think that if it took this long to get this bad, it is going to take just as long to start to improve. I think the urban hunt is a good idea if executed properly but is going to take years to show any actual significant data.

Just a side note as well, I seen two moose last year in the oliver papounge townshipe area walking in circles all over the roads with the head tilted to the side. The deer will not only be the problem, soon enough there will be large amounts of moose close to the city confussed with the brain worm and will now be hazzard on the roads as well. And from what I was told, that moose was indeed hit by a vehicle.

[Guest Beamer]

Anyone in favour of this should call their City councillor and voice their support as it will come down to a vote by city councill. Lots of good points made in the posts above, my two cents are I am in favour, as it is simply allowing landowners to utilize their land how they wish. Sure there will be detractors but they are there anyway and hunters for the most part are ethical and responsible. There is nothing wrong with people hunting on their land and utilizing a resource that is already there and rapidly expanding not to mention the accidents property damage and wasted animals.I am a landowner and quit frankly don't like being told what I can or can't do on my hard earned space.

Beamer

[Guest TBaySmitty]

I really don't see an urban hunt making much of an impact, especially with the proposed 75m from residence. Places on Oliver Rd, near Loch Lomond and a few others spots will be fine but most will not. I live off Arthur St W, see deer on a daily basis but will not be able to hunt anywhere around me. Lots of deer on Balmoral, Harbour EXPW, and Rosslyn but again no where to hunt. I like the idea and agree with Beamer that he should be allowed to hunt safely but where?

[fisherdude 69]

im still on the fence about this but jus thought id say one got hit by a car this evening on memorial right beside a&w. Its only going to get worse. They are EVERYWHERE

[Guest Wes]

I dragged one of the Edward between expressway and college on Tuesday. The one day I did not drive my truck to work. I called a buddy but it was gone 10 minutes later.

[Some Old Guy 968]

I also got a deer with my 350 chevy magnum. I was going 60 km on the hwy right at john st. I live out hwy 61 and it's nerve wracking to drive at night around here after you hit a deer. i say hunt them!

Roger

[Guest mucky]

I watched them drag that deer off memorial road last night with it still kicking. They dragged it off the road and just passed the side walk. I heard two gun shots while I was trying to concentrate on placing my meal in a&w. A well placed shot is the best way a deer is going to go to heaven if you ask me.