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Buck 120

Will be difficult to get a moose tag this year

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Buck 120

The mnr has slashed moose tags in Thunder Bay and Dryden by 88%.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/ontario-slashes-adult-moose-tags-1.2612675

No guaranteed group size for a bull in WMU 13. 11 hunters required for a cow tag in 13. They are issuing 55 bulls tags and 70 cow tags in WMU 13.

WMU 15b has 463 bull tags and 377 cow tags. Need 7 hunters for a guaranteed bull and 6 hunters for a guaranteed cow in 15b.

Definitely some drastic changes taking place for years to come.


Not just a 3 month season but a 12 month obsession!!!

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naden

wow.....


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Fishbum

yup pretty stupid if you ask me.... way to go and cut your own throat especially when it comes to tourisum in not only thunder bay but all of north western ontario! Wish there was some kind of common sense used and not just a stupid computer model. I've flown prolly 2000 miles this winter in a helicopter for work and seen 1 moose and not very many tracks either( and the same goes for caribou.. not much activity and arn't they a winter animal....apparently they know when its safe to move and safe to stay put.. The one moose we did see where was he.. yup in the thick black spruce where theres 1/2 the snow and more sheltered from the brutal cold and wind!. Moose arn't stupid there not goona move around and travel when the snow is nut deep and its -30 all winter... thats a waste of enegy they just dont' have...not to mention they don't standf a chance agaist wolves when there belly's dragging in the snow and the wolves floating across the top! This is by far the dumbest thing the mnr has done in a while. If they only used some common sense when they made their decision's everyone would be better off. They didn't see the moose on there moose survey which is done once every 4 years ( and if you all remember right 4 years ago was a pretty sad winter... so ofcourse thenumber of sighting and tracks are going to exponentialy higher then that now where its a hard cold winter) because the moose are in the thick crap... they didn't see the tracks either cause the moose are holding up tight and not moving out in the open... their smart.... their conserving energy to survive!



Take driving to lac for instance.. all dec and early jan seen lots of moose and trcaks all over why... cause its cold so they move, but there's little snow so its easy moving... then the rest of winter and even now you see like nothing for tracks...doesn't mean the moose are dead just means theres not moving as much and staying where there sheltered from everything.. predators and weather. again... trying to limit movement where the snow is the deepest and where they burn the most energy....its common sense people...moose have been dealing with this for thousands of years they're not stupid!


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joks

It would be interesting to find out if they cut the outfitters tags by an equal amount. Still deciding whether to even apply and give the government my money or just give up moose hunting for a few years. The cost of a moose licence will buy a good chunk of beef.


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dano

Sorry guys, but the tags should have been reduced years before this. Hopefully the population bounces back. It's about time 13 and 15b were given a break. These areas should have had comparable tag quotas as other WMU's ,like 12B or 15a for example , from the beginning. Just my opinion.

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Guest mucky

While I agree that doing an arial survey is not the most accurate way of tracking and recording moose and it leaves a lot of room for error, you cannot say that this is the dumbest thing that the MNR has done in years. There is clearly a problem going on with the moose population sizes and this can easily be seen when comparing the Minnesota moose populations with our own moose population. These are two independent studies that have been done both of which are showing similar results. This new information cannot come as a surprise as the MN government put a hault on the moose hunt indefinitaly last year in response to the declining herds. I dont speak for everyone, but if they needed to stop the moose hunt for a few years in order to get the herds back to a sustainable population size I would be all for it. I want nothing more than to hunt moose decades from now with my children and if something is not done early to preserve this resource I wont get the chance. As for hurting tourism in NWO in regards to moose hunting, if the population cannot sustain itself it will be lost completely and so will its tourism market.


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Pro fisherman-Stud Muffin

well i archery hunt 13 , 5 bull tags come on???
we saw over 5 bulls in 4 days last year, within a square mile or 2 . sadly we had a cow tag . must have called in 5 more that we didn't see but heard.

this was poor weather causing less than ideal counting conditions for a survey.

Hey
i just counted 0 squirrels in my back yard. the squirrel population didn't survive winter either.

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naden

The only way a moose harvest can be reduced is by reducing the tags to a number that is actually less than the number of moose being harvested in that particular wmu. Area 13 has always had a large number of tags available (1115 in 2013), but I doubt the number of moose harvested is anywhere near that number. If the average annual harvest was say 500 moose and the tags were reduced to say 800, the harvest isnt going to be reduced by much. If the government is serious about reducing the harvest untill populations can recover then the first nations harvest needs to also be monitored.



I agree that aerial surveys are not very accurate, and poor weather and less cutting probably resulted in a lower population count. But I think it would be rediculous to think that whatever is killing off the minnesota moose is not affecting our moose as well. In the southern portions of area 13 they are the same moose!



I hope the mnr pumps some money into this situation and figures out what is actually going on, but the reduction in tags will probably result in less revenue generated from moose licenses.


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Travis Schallock

Its all about the caribou. The MNR's goal for some time now has been to reduce the moose population to help the caribou. They don't advertise it, but the official plan is to manage all other species to best help the caribou. It is on there website. How long did you really think over 1000 adult tags would be sustainable without reducing the population? Even in some of the other areas where qoutas are reduced, not nearly as much as 13, they have cut the total amount of tags but increased the amount of cow tags. Now why would they ever increase the amount of cow tags if they were worried about a decline in the moose population.



Travis Schallock

Nakina Fish and Game Club - President

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Guest Kevin

The out fitters are the first to get cut that I know with out a doubt. Good thing like many of us, we don't need a tag. I just hate the ones that take out of season just because they can.


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NorthwestHunter

I don't know about everyone else on here…but my main concern is the moose - not whether or not I've got a tag in my pocket.


Tags don't mater much if there no animals to hunt.



The integrity of the MNR's data on our moose population is irrelevant when you see whats happening just south of the border. Our moose population may not be in peril as much as there - but it may be on its way. I think the ministry is trying to be proactive about this situation - rather than being reactive once our population is near decimation.



Ive personally noticed a considerable decrease in moose populations in both areas I hunt (13 & 15B).



Like one before me said, I would be okay with a cancellation for a couple years to really bring back the population.



Just my $0.02.



-Paul


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Whitetail hunting, not just a 3 month season...a 12 month obsession

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Travis Schallock

Agreed Paul, the problem is it is not all what they are saying. They say populations are down and they are cutting tags as a result, and overall tags are cut. But when you really look at the numbers, they are cut drastically in a couple WMU's, with minor cuts in others. The other WMU's with minor cuts have increased cow tags.


18A archery cow up 98.2%


18A rifle cow up 60.3%


16A rifle cow up 107%


16B rifle cow up 96.7%


17 rifle cow up 69.7%


18B rifle cow up 80.9%


18B muzzleloader cow up 35%


15A rifle cow up 27.1%


15A archery cow up 50%



I could keep going. Bull tags are down, some more than others, but cow tags are up significantly across a lot of WMU's. That does not sound to me like the MNR is worried about a low moose population. Only cows can bring the population back up, and they are trying to get rid of more cows across all areas that haven't already been devastated.




Travis Schallock

Nakina Fish and Game Club - President

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ghart

I too am fearful for the populations in the region.

When I moved here in 2006, I drove daily Nipigon to Beardmore. I would see moose everyday, sometimes a few. Starting in about 2010, I would rarely see them.

Now, the Tag cuts - sure some of them are up, but all the up is on the Cow side, all the down is on the Bull side. The News/Interviews and other information seems to indicate the problem is the calf recruitment/survival.

Typically you would think then that more bull tags and less cow tags as one very tired moose can look after a lot of cows. So to me the move indicates there's a sharp reduction in bull populations and increased cow in a lot of areas.

Personally Id rather them close it to bull only at reduced tags - for a few years.

On the East coast, the government put together a large panel of bios, oceanographers, fishermen, etc. etc. To discuss the safe catch for cod for the following year. The committee came up with a number... X, they said the absolute maximum would be 2X.

The government then in all its wisdom set the quotas at 8X. (I cannot remember actual numbers but the multipliers I remember). and the next year the Cod stocks collapsed and have never come back.

I fear there may be something like that going on here with moose as it kind of fails my logic test with the increased cow tags.


mybackyard125x125.jpg In the Age of Information, Ignorance is a Choice.

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Pro fisherman-Stud Muffin

the cow tags are a ruse. calling out a bull ...easy ish. calling out a cow not so easy. i think that cow tags have a lower sucess rate . my feelings based on my sightings over the years

MNR had a responsibility and they screwed up , they caused irreparable damage to the economy and moose populations.

They cut a 1000 tags in 13, assuming 4 guys to a tag, that 4000 less moose hunters this year. or 4000 displaced hunters that may apply in other wmu's . the guaranteed group size that has been set may not apply if the 4000 WMU13 hunters apply in other WMU's not adjusted.

either way i expect to see more pissed off hunters.






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SherpaJ

They cut a 1000 tags in 13, assuming 4 guys to a tag, that 4000 less moose hunters this year. or 4000 displaced hunters that may apply in other wmu's . the guaranteed group size that has been set may not apply if the 4000 WMU13 hunters apply in other WMU's not adjusted.

The MNR adjusted their groups sizes with expectation of hunters moving to new areas with more tags. For example, 15B went from 1256 total tags last year to 840 this year (only 25 less cow tags though), but the guaranteed group size went from 2 and 2 (bull and cow) to 7 and 6. With the same number of hunters though, that would mean groups of 4 or 2 would be guaranteed bull or cow tags, respectively. Of course that means their hunter numbers are just estimates.

I have no problem with the MNR reducing tags, but their methods of doing so are an utter mess. In fact the entire system we have is terrible. Ontario has the most mismanaged wildlife in North America. They should learn from other areas; preference point systems and only taking mature males. Full stop.

Even though they may be trying to be proactive with the moose populations, they're still playing catch-up to manage our resources like other jurisdictions.

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Fishbum

Everyone always seems to say ahhh well...not a big deal we'll just take a year off from hunting and this just means that many more tags for nexy year... LMAO haa well i grew up in sault ste marie and i would have to say 10 -12 years ago they did the same thing for areas around there and wawa.. saying the huge drop was from decreasing moose populations... sure there may have been a slight decrease from what it was 10 years prior, bur not nearly the decrease they said there was. If they actually spent any real time in the bush like the men and woman that work daily in the bush, they might have a slight idea of what moose activity is like.



Side note.... they havn't increased the tags for thoise areas not even 1 tag fro the past 10+ years..moose populations are on the increase even the past 5 years because its pretty well usueless to even hunt them....but do the tags increase...NOPE!!! i'd expect the same thing here. take something good....twist it around.....piss off alot of people.....nd never do anything more about it but turn your back and walk away...sounds typical! The public always looses, sad to say!


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Guest mucky

The fact of the matter is that the arial survery combined with the voluntery ballots hunters send in at the end of the season are really the MNRs only real way at this point of keeping track of the moose populations and the amount of moose harvested. Hopefully they will be able to get some funding for radio colloring moose to aid in their data collection. Using anecdotal evidence like "I saw a bunch of moose last year" (more than likely what you saw was the same moose over and over again), "I called in a pile of moose last year that I never saw" and "listening to moose stories from people working in the bush" is a hilarious way to view what is going on. For those who think that there is not a problem, you are either ignorant or completly oblivious. Just look at our neighbours to the south, the MN moose populations surverys that they have done. Their population has dropped more than 52% since 2010 (with a 35% drop between 2012-2013). In 2006 they had a their peak population at approx 8,840 in 2006 which dropped to numbers approx 2,760 in 2013. If you look into their history about their moose population its easy to see that it has been an up and down trend which many times they have cancelled all together the moose hunts (for YEARS) in order to help get numbers back to a sustainable amount, which has worked in the past. The Ontario MNR has taken the first step in protecting a vital species by reducing the tags. The whole point of reducing the tags more in some areas was to relieve the pressure on that WMU and displace it to other areas. Increasing the cow tags will do nothing as someone has stated that there are more bulls harvested than cows anyways. While previous studies investigating weather, habitat, physiology, behaviors, hunting and predation do not have a clear exlaination why the population has dropped, research shows that the most likely cause is from poor health and stress causing illness. While hunting and predation at this time are not thought to be the main cause, limiting the amount of pressure from hunters is a first step in what is going to be LONG study. The MNDNR study is suppose to take place over 7yrs and we should all hope that the MNR in collaboration with LU join up with the MNDNR to figure out how to save this precious animal.



Yes there are going to be some pissed off hunters who dont care at all about the population as a whole but only want to run and gun. Either put up the cash in gas to drive hours outside of town to one of the WMU that has more available tags or go cry to someone who cares. I love moose hunting more than most and would be perfectly content hanging up the moose hunting supplies leaving the shack at home until things improve.


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Fishbum

Oh ya i get it that the right thing to do is to manage a population for a long lasting future, and to protect things before they go down hill, but correct me if i'm wrong but hunters and predators have the smallest effect on moose populations. So when your looking at the hunter survey...anybody with common sense would take what they get back with a grain of salt,...how many hunters lie? how many hunters don't even bother replying? some of the best info you can get IMO is from guys and girls that aactually spend the time in the bush, and get first hand knowledge of whats happening. If they actually believed that hunter surveys were valid pieces of info.... maybe send along a postage paid envalope and people might actually take th etime to reply,...pretty hard when they raise our tag prices, cut our tags, and then expect us to pay to get our info...give me a break here... its should be give and take process not just take take take.

Just sad to sad such a dirastic cut...basicaly saying (most) moose hunters might as well just pack it in for the year... i don't feel thats right. secondly basing your decision on a mathematical equation from surveys, and arial surveys is just foolish... they are usefull tool no doubt...but the key word is "tools" . A number on a page or in a formula doesnt recognize....natural, outside conditons which may have effected its value...it just knows what the number is disgrgarding any other influencing factors.

wanna talk disease and the biggest factor in moose death...take a look at the kenora area.... DEER deer kill of moose...everyone knows it and sees it...so why not increase deer tags....cut the additional tag price in half?..give hunters a fighting chance to help control one population while protecting another!

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SherpaJ

I think the one thing the MNR has failed to recognize is the expanding populations of deer, particularly in NWO. Just as Fish24/7 said, the expanding deer range is driving the moose range to recede. This is the problem in Minnesota: a long historical loss of habitat to both humans and now primarily deer. Now their range is so small in Minnesota that it acts as a kind of "island population". It's naturally inherent to these areas to have fluctuating, (and on average) high extinction and turnover rates, making it a very bad sampling area. In fact, their moose population increased 58% from 2013 to 2014. But, they also found the highest Bull-to-Cow ratio, 1.24. These results almost beg for them to reinstate a 2014 hunt. Only 68 moose (all bulls) were taken in 2012, if another 70 bulls were taken in 2014 it would create more habitat capacity for calves without affecting the functional population of moose.


The Minnesota DNR reports that 38% of their GPS tracked moose have died due to stress and health issues while 36% caused by by unknown; both of which being considered "natural" causes. These "natural" causes are simply due to the stresses and competition involved in a small, receding habitat. The same is happening in Ontario, without a doubt, especially in WMU 8, 13, 9B, 11A, and 14. These units are the only areas in ontario with noticeable decrease in moose population. They also happen to be the units where deer populations have been increasing the last decade. The MNR cannot stop the spread of whitetail no matter what they try, nobody has even been able to. BUT, what they can do is adapt: Recognize the changing habitats and ranges and reshape the WMU's accordingly. WMU 13 is too large and too diverse, it needs to be divided into areas of largely deer habitat and then that of moose. And if they have to, re-asses that every couple years. Nature is dynamic, but the MNR seems to think that our forest biogeography is static. The problem is not the decrease in moose population, its the receding range resulting in a decrease in population. In the interior of the moose range, populations have remained stable.


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naden

I wouldnt expect the mnr to look to far into what is happening with the moose populations. I listened to a radio interview with Brad Allison from the mnr and he basically said that the area is so large that it would be too costly to conduct a study. The cheapest and easiest way to do something is to reduce tags, the sad part is not hunting moose that are dying from an unknown cause isnt going to help much. My guess would be we will have to wait untill minnesota figures out what is going on with their moose. Also, I wish the government would at least ask the first nations to report their moose harvest as well as contribute their observations of the moose herd as they are an important part of the puzzle as well.



I agree that anectotal evidence has some merrit but is open to interpretation. As an example, our hunting group has been hunting the exact same area for approx 7 years with a group ranging from 6 to 12 people depending on the weekend. We hunt this area all season and only one group member has seen a calf ever. However, we have seen lots of calf tracks and shot 1.5 yr old bulls.........so is there actually no calves, or do the cows just do a good job of keeping them hidden? Hard to say for sure.



I agree with the statement above that deer tags should be cheaper. If the intent of the mnr was to increase the deer harvest to protect the moose populations, the additional deer tags should have been at a reduced rate. I dont know very many people that purchase all 7 tags at full price and also have the time to hunt them over three different wmus. Or give moose hunters a free doe tag, many moose hunters in the Thunder Bay area cant be bothered to buy a deer tag but would gladly harvest one if the tags were cheaper.



Its been a while since I read the management plans for each wmu in the area, but if I recall correctly wmu 13 is managed with moose as a priority, not caribou. Some of the areas north of 13 have caribou as a priority.



My personal opinion is that the reintroduction of the spring bear is great, it will increase hunting oppurtunities and give the local economy a boost. But I doubt enough bears will be harvested to significantly reduce the amount of calves taken by bears. As for the wolves I would assume their populations will fluctuate depending on the amount of deer around. My guess would be this winter was hard on deer but I saw a couple hundred this past weekend driving to duluth so there is always lots of deer to the south to replenish our populations. Brain worm could deffenetly be a factor but I have heard few reports of coming across moose in ontario infected by this. The one thing that stands out in my mind as a smoking gun is winter tick infestations. Ticks in area 13 have exploded in the last few years. Large tick infestations cause the moose to spend energy in the spring replenishing their blood and grooming themselves. This occurs at a time of year when moose are burning more calories looking for food than they are consuming. The ticks are even harder on the calves. This is only my opinion and Im sure all the factors above are taking their toll as well as hunting.



Heres an interesting read on ticks:http://www.ccwhc.ca/wildlife_health_topics/winter_tick/wintertick.php


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Pro fisherman-Stud Muffin

Using anecdotal evidence like "I saw a bunch of moose last year" (more than likely what you saw was the same moose over and over again), "I called in a pile of moose last year that I never saw"

Same moose over and over again Isn't very likely . You see the male moose wear these things called antlers ( pointy hard things) that are sort of distinguishing and easy to tell a 50 incher from a spiker.

But anyways we hunt near pipeline so maybe moose populations haven't fallen off as much as southern areas . I haven't noticed a decline in last 5-6 years I've been hunting.


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Some Old Guy

I don't hunt, but if I did..... Just kidding.



I hope that it doesn't get as bad as it's forecasted. I would hate to see moose hunting end up like our sturgeon fishing did.



Roger



R.T.R. Respect the resource!

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Kaptain Kirk

Its Time that every moose Hunter in The Province Says No to purchasing a License This Year. Save your Money for Wolf and Bear Tags. I believe it is time to take some of the predators out and then may be the moose Population will return, When i was young fella you could take as many bears as you wanted just had to purchase additional tags, and the MNR paid a bounty on the wolves.No tags Required,and You Hardly ever saw a wolf now a days i see 6 to 12 wolves per year and bears all over the place. I Think The MNR Needs to Wake Up, There Studies and Management system is So Out of Date, its not Funny. Just My 2 Cents.


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