• Donate to T.B.F.

    T.B.F. is dependant on donations from users like you! Thank you to those that have made a donation! All donations go back into upgrading the site!


    25% of donation goal reached.
    Donate Sidebar by DevFuse
  • Recently Browsing

    No registered users viewing this page.

Sign in to follow this  
tracker

Moose Management- Need input- EBR 012-3413

Recommended Posts

Gwhunter99

So almost every point has been brought up on the board so far .....wolves,bears, low calfs numbers,general moose numbers down and so on . The point I don't see anything being addressed on is a aboriginal hunting ? Are they going to cut back their harvest at all ? Their allowed to hunt moose in the rut with a rifle and take as many as they choose to and want so why isn't this being addressed as an issue for less hunting pressure as well ?

I was at the Toronto sportsman show and raise a similar question "about nipising walleye" to the MNR. The answer I pretty much got was " we are scared of the aboriginal groups". No joke

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cribby

Gwhunter99, I agree with the MNR as for the aboriginals fishing using nets and wiping out a lake. But hunting is a much different thing. Aboriginals hunting moose and deer are only a very small fraction of the animals killed during the year. If they are even successful at all.


The idea of bulls only sounds great, or even close season all together for five years. And with the phase two. I hope the full bear season is restored for both resident and non-resident and a bounty for wolves and coyotes is put in place till the numbers get to where the MNR would like them.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cribby

Yes I agree about the habitat Tracker, The MNR is on the right track with these changes, As long as they keep asking groups like NOSA and the hunters themselves their opinions on the changes. Not everyone will agree with these changes, but it's a good start on the drastic things that must be done to get our moose population back.



Just hope the MNR doesn't drop the ball when money from licence fees starts to drop.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
arvey

Hopefully changes will help the moose and only time will tell. One thing for sure what a politician says and does is two different things we all know that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The_Outdoorsman

good to see some fish/game groups are behind it... from the article ofah posted i got the sense that they didnt really care that the mnr is starting to make positive strides, but were rather against this change and want it to remain status quo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Slick_Jig

Gwhunter99, I agree with the MNR as for the aboriginals fishing using nets and wiping out a lake. But hunting is a much different thing. Aboriginals hunting moose and deer are only a very small fraction of the animals killed during the year. If they are even successful at all.

The idea of bulls only sounds great, or even close season all together for five years. And with the phase two. I hope the full bear season is restored for both resident and non-resident and a bounty for wolves and coyotes is put in place till the numbers get to where the MNR would like them.

The MNR is taking the right steps in protecting our moose population. Its a start! I also agree that non-residents should be allowed to hunt bears.

I did my Honours Undergraduate thesis on the tag allocation system and aboriginal hunting as it effects moose populations. The results are opposite to what you think. I surveyed three aboriginal reserves to gather harvest numbers within their WMU. The results showed that aboriginal harvest in these areas where approaching 20% of the allocated tags for that area. In addition automotive and train kills are not counted. Mis-counting actual moose harvest within the WMU has been a BIG problem in the allocation system for a long time.

These results are from volunteers within the communities and not a total of all moose harvested within the community.

As far as I know, this is the only actual harvest data that has been gathered from these communities. ( 2010)


Gone Fishing

Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
toma-hawk

I for one would not like to see a closed season on moose . You my not get it back, just look at your spring bear hunt.Mn. cancelled their moose hunt ,rumor has it that their worried of loosing it all together.Hopefully the powers to be do the right things to get back to a sustainable moose herd once again.It will not be a easy job thats for sure.lots of interest groups to please.Some will be happy others won't be. Just hope things get done to improve the resource, without the politics for votes.



Rick




Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cribby

Slick_jig Can you tell us the names of the reserves polled? I'm just curious to know if they were remote reserves or ones like FWFN or Nipigon.


Thanks



And from what I understand the MNR has contacted some reserves just to let them know what they are trying to do about the moose population. And might be hoping they will pass it on to their members to participate?



Yes toma-hawk. thinking about your comment on closing season all together may be a bad thing. But shortening it might be a better suggestion.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fishbum

Nobody see's the cows?? Come on now.. you really want to make a change happen and happen quick cut back drastically or eliminate all togeather the cow tags. It doesn't matter if your shooting a cow mid october or mid december if she was bred then your not only killing one animal your killing possibly two or three in one shot! Hows that make any kind of management sense??? Sure you need bulls to breed cows, but one bull will breed multiple cows, and travel long distances in search of those cows... besides when the cow he breeds lives and has a calf its a 50/50 shot that that calf will be a bull to grow up and breed more of those cows that are saved. Seems fairly simple too me.. save cows they'll have babies and in turn make more bulls to breed other cows.



As for the calf hunt... sure you'll save some baby moose but calves arn't the easiest thing to hunt at any time of year therefore making them relitivly safe from huntes .. sure theres calves that get shot but i bet there's far more calf tag holders that go home emptie handed than there are adult tag holders?? hmmmmm Sounds like saving the calves is a political move.. make the tree hungers happy we are saving poor innocent baby moose!!




Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
scandiman

MNR's management tactic: manage the hunters, not the resource.

The whole thing smells

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Some Old Guy

If you have a snowshoe hare crash then you have a fox crash. Same with voles and mice. The coyotes and fox crash.



Deer not only displace moose they allow wolves to thrive. Bear will take deer but find calf moose relatively easier to take down.



To me the deer are a huge issue regarding our moose populations. Deer not only out compete moose for food and habitat there is also the threat of brain worm.



I'm 48 years old and when I was younger you were hard pressed to see any deer around here. If you wanted to have just a glimpse of a deer you went to Mission Island. Now they are everywhere.



What I'm trying to say is that if you were allowed more deer would that help? I'm not talking about city limits I'm talking about everywhere.



Also what has to happen is re-opening the spring bear hunt.



I know the moose population is hurting. Managing the hunter looks great on paper and a very easy sell to both groups. Both groups being the hunters and the ones that are not so hunting orientated. We need to look at WHY predator populations are high. Everything is cyclical as with the hare vs fox rational.



Bring on more deer tags!!!



Roger



R.T.R. Respect the resource!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cribby

That's absolutely right Roger, The deer are as much a problem as the bears,wolves and coyotes. But If I understand the letter correctly, they should be part of Phase 2? At least I would hope.



Only thing I can see other then that is that they are expecting hunters to buy more extra deer tags at full price to make up for the lack of moose tags that will be sold.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sliver

The problem I have noticed out there in last bunch of years is the high population of cows with no calfs six seen this year and no calfs bull only hunt would only make this worse shorter season don't shoot cows with calfs and less tags

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Travis Schallock

This whole moose problem seems to be so simple to me. Don't shoot cows or calves unless there is an overpopulation. Simple.



I grew up in Northeastern BC, Fort Nelson. For most of northern BC all you ever did was go buy a bull tag over the counter, any resident could, and they did. The only places you could hunt cow or calf was in high density areas, and usually needed to get a draw to do so. It was a zoo when season opened just like it is here with all the hunters from the lower mainland showing up. A real gong show, and every hunter had a bull tag in thier pocket. Season opened Aug 15, closed mid Sept until early Oct for the rut, then opened again until the end of Oct, for rifle. The couple weeks it was closed to rifle was archery season. The thing is there were always lots of moose, it was very common to go out for a long weekend and see 10-15 moose, all cows and calves, but lots of moose. It was fun, you saw game, actually observed them, looked for a bull with them, and moved on to find more and hopefully a bull.



Then a couple years before I moved, and I don't remember why if it was a population problem or not, but it was changed. They put an antler restriction in place. Everyone still bought a bull tag over the counter, but now it had to be a spike, fork horn, or have 3 points on the brow palm. Most people were upset with it, particularly the big hunter clubs(BC's OFAH). Everyone thought it was too hard to do, people would shoot first and count points later, or abandon the illegal bulls that where shot. The thing is it didn't happen. It actually worked so well that after a few years they got rid of the archery season all together and its now open to rifle the entire season. It worked, there are always bulls around to breed cows. Then the calves that didn't get shot were the spike and fork bulls the next year. Any bull that makes it through his first year is then safe to breed for a few years until he grows those 3pts on the brow palm and is legal again.



When I first moved to Ontario I couldn't believe that everyone got a calf tag, it didn't make sense to me. I remember asking a CO about it and he told me that the wolves and bears take half the calves in their first year anyway so the hunter might as well take them too. I told him if the hunters are taking some of those same calves the wolves and bears are going to eat, what do you think the wolves and bears will eat? Nothing? He didn't have an answer for me. It just seemed absurd. Then the more I got out hunting and learning the area, I couldn't believe how much prime area there was and there just weren't many moose around. Compared to what I was used too anyways.



As far as the predators go, the spring bear hunt will help, as well as getting rid of having to buy a tag for wolves. But I don't think that is as big of a problem as most probably do. We had far more bears and wolves around back home as there are here, not even comparable. When hunting bears in the spring if you saw 10 bears in an evening, just going for a drive, it was the norm. A good night would be 20-25. You watched them and picked the one you wanted to take. They are everywhere. There are enough bears around that CO's will give you $hit if they catch you camping or fishing and you are not packing your rifle or shotgun. Literally tell you that you shouldn't be out without one. LOTS of bears. Wolves are probably similar, maybe a little more. Then Grizzles also, they can hunt!



The natives are the natives. Same as here, no seasons, no bag limit, just did their thing. Most were good, a couple give the rest a bad name. Very little difference.



One thing I couldn't get was hunter orange. I know its supposed to be a safety issue. But out there you never hear of hunting accidents, extremely rare, and there is no hunter orange. My opinion is that it is the antler restriction, and no cow/calf that makes it so much safer. You actually have to identify your target and observe it before you shoot. There are also antler restrictions on almost every species, and no cow/doe seasons except draws in some areas. But even if you get a cow/doe draw you have to observe to make sure it isn't a spike.



So I think if Ontario went the same route BC did 15 or so years ago, not only would we have more opportunity with everyone getting their bull tag, but our population would become sustainable again, and it would also be a lot safer out there for hunters and everyone else. One thing for sure they have no problem, their populations are going up. I picked my brother up from the airport last night and we were talking about moose hunting. He was complaining about all the cows/calves/and illegal bulls he saw this year, and how every time he saw a legal bull there seemed to be a reason not too shoot.



My 2 cents. What do you think?



Travis Schallock

Nakina Fish and Game Club - President

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
arvey

although everything has been mentioned the one thing that hasn't been is caribou . this not a liberal dream it is mandated and areas that once had good moose population will be low to medium and the habitat will be groomed for caribou . just can't understand why.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Monks

Glad to see some changes are finally being made. Obviously the current management strategy is not working. Shortened calf season is a joke. A grasp at retaining tag revenue, by a government organization, which cannot manage themselves. Should be a zero tag allocation of calves, if the moose herd, is as dire as the MNR says it is.


I agree with the week later hunting start. However, it takes years for the results of management strategy to take hold and a much broader management strategy should have been implemented.


As mentioned, included first nations as part of it, increased enforcement (more Conservation Officers being hired), a broader predator harvesting management strategy, and a more in-depth review of how the OMNR will do its part to manage itself with a potentially reduced revenue stream. Focusing on the main revenue group (hunters) and supposed harvesting group is a narrow minded approach. Much like a corporation makes cut backs from the bottom up.


Unfortunately we manage our natural resources for our own gain, and not what is best for the environment.


For years no one complained about getting numerous deer tags. Hey the hunting was good. Now the deer herd in NWO is declining rapidly. Hunters complained when the surplus tags were cut, and blamed it on the abundance of wolves. Yes the deer population grew above its carrying capacity, but instead of a progressive management strategy, once again a reactive management strategy was employed. The result, a rapid rise and decline. Sorry but outside of Tbay, there are very few deer, the herd as a whole has been drastically reduced.


I digress, for a parallel to fishing. Let’s look at Shebandowan. Local camp (cottage) owners now complain that Bass are overtaking the lake and that the Walleye fishery is declining, because in years past, lots of walleye were caught and no bass. “I remember when we could fill the boat with walleye and never catch a bass”. I’m sure you could. However, if you consistently target one species and remove it from its habitat, another will move in and flourish. Point made, replace Moose with Walleye and the same holds true.


Once we intervene with nature and deem a course of management, we cannot deviate from the management strategy. ‘Cancelling the spring bear hunt’. Obviously, after years of actively managing this species and then suddenly stopping, something will happen. More calf killing predators, more human encounters etc.


So as glad I am to see that some changes are coming for the management of moose, the broad spectrum of wildlife and ecosystem management, are being completely overlooked and or not being considered.


I for one am very disappointed that my tax dollars are funding, what I deem are arm chair biologists. I have dealt with various aspects of the OMNR for years and have seen their hiring process and recruitment of biologists first hand. The OMNR has some very educated individuals, unfortunately not enough of them.


The OMNR drastically reduced the allocation of tags for the harvest of Moose in 1 year. Perhaps they should have also drastically introduced a more proactive management strategy.


  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fishbum

This whole moose problem seems to be so simple to me. Don't shoot cows or calves unless there is an overpopulation. Simple.

I grew up in Northeastern BC, Fort Nelson. For most of northern BC all you ever did was go buy a bull tag over the counter, any resident could, and they did. The only places you could hunt cow or calf was in high density areas, and usually needed to get a draw to do so. It was a zoo when season opened just like it is here with all the hunters from the lower mainland showing up. A real gong show, and every hunter had a bull tag in thier pocket. Season opened Aug 15, closed mid Sept until early Oct for the rut, then opened again until the end of Oct, for rifle. The couple weeks it was closed to rifle was archery season. The thing is there were always lots of moose, it was very common to go out for a long weekend and see 10-15 moose, all cows and calves, but lots of moose. It was fun, you saw game, actually observed them, looked for a bull with them, and moved on to find more and hopefully a bull.

Then a couple years before I moved, and I don't remember why if it was a population problem or not, but it was changed. They put an antler restriction in place. Everyone still bought a bull tag over the counter, but now it had to be a spike, fork horn, or have 3 points on the brow palm. Most people were upset with it, particularly the big hunter clubs(BC's OFAH). Everyone thought it was too hard to do, people would shoot first and count points later, or abandon the illegal bulls that where shot. The thing is it didn't happen. It actually worked so well that after a few years they got rid of the archery season all together and its now open to rifle the entire season. It worked, there are always bulls around to breed cows. Then the calves that didn't get shot were the spike and fork bulls the next year. Any bull that makes it through his first year is then safe to breed for a few years until he grows those 3pts on the brow palm and is legal again.

When I first moved to Ontario I couldn't believe that everyone got a calf tag, it didn't make sense to me. I remember asking a CO about it and he told me that the wolves and bears take half the calves in their first year anyway so the hunter might as well take them too. I told him if the hunters are taking some of those same calves the wolves and bears are going to eat, what do you think the wolves and bears will eat? Nothing? He didn't have an answer for me. It just seemed absurd. Then the more I got out hunting and learning the area, I couldn't believe how much prime area there was and there just weren't many moose around. Compared to what I was used too anyways.

As far as the predators go, the spring bear hunt will help, as well as getting rid of having to buy a tag for wolves. But I don't think that is as big of a problem as most probably do. We had far more bears and wolves around back home as there are here, not even comparable. When hunting bears in the spring if you saw 10 bears in an evening, just going for a drive, it was the norm. A good night would be 20-25. You watched them and picked the one you wanted to take. They are everywhere. There are enough bears around that CO's will give you $hit if they catch you camping or fishing and you are not packing your rifle or shotgun. Literally tell you that you shouldn't be out without one. LOTS of bears. Wolves are probably similar, maybe a little more. Then Grizzles also, they can hunt!

The natives are the natives. Same as here, no seasons, no bag limit, just did their thing. Most were good, a couple give the rest a bad name. Very little difference.

One thing I couldn't get was hunter orange. I know its supposed to be a safety issue. But out there you never hear of hunting accidents, extremely rare, and there is no hunter orange. My opinion is that it is the antler restriction, and no cow/calf that makes it so much safer. You actually have to identify your target and observe it before you shoot. There are also antler restrictions on almost every species, and no cow/doe seasons except draws in some areas. But even if you get a cow/doe draw you have to observe to make sure it isn't a spike.

So I think if Ontario went the same route BC did 15 or so years ago, not only would we have more opportunity with everyone getting their bull tag, but our population would become sustainable again, and it would also be a lot safer out there for hunters and everyone else. One thing for sure they have no problem, their populations are going up. I picked my brother up from the airport last night and we were talking about moose hunting. He was complaining about all the cows/calves/and illegal bulls he saw this year, and how every time he saw a legal bull there seemed to be a reason not too shoot.

My 2 cents. What do you think?

I agree 100% Travis!!! A good budxdy of mine moved from here to B.C few years ago and he was telling me some of the rules... like like you stated. It makes perfect sense, they allways see lots of moose all the time...it just a matter of finding the right moose during hunting season ( as is everywhere else). I think thats the best thing they could do for the moose population here.... Now thats good management skills in my opinion!

As for it being hard to see points, and count and then shoot etc..... sure i agree 100% it's gonna be hard, but the number of injured moose getting away cause of guys just winging shots because ( its brown its down!) will drop significatly. Once the moose is open and clear enough to count the points... it should be well within accurate shooting distance etc. I think its the same idea as a calf... pretty tough to tell the difference a lot of times, pretty hard to shoot a calf that has no mother ( i know i wouldn't) and even harder to tell which one apart if its a small cow with calf , or calf later in the season... same thing in my opinon! You make sure before you shoot... if you dont and you make a mistake... pay the consequenses end of story!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gsambray

Stop the effin spraying. People say it doesn't hurt the animals. Gold creek area used to see cows with twin calves all the time. They sprayed and all of the sudden your lucky to see a calf with a cow. That happened a long time ago but I've noticed it in northern lights area. See moose then they spray and guess what. No moose around

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mikeman

I think our MNRF should be talking to provinces, states or even European countries that have good moose populations and implement some of their ideas. I think for the most part a bulls only harvest would be the best thing to start with. I know down south when they first started with deer antlerless tags I went 7 years before drawing a doe tag. The last few years there has been a surplus of 1000 doe tags (82A)and a 100 percent of hunters received their first choice doe tags. It is not rocket science that by not killing does and fawns for a few years that the population would rebound. Would the moose here in Northern Ontario not also rebound if hunting cows and calves stopped. It's time to stop thinking that we can still do things the way we did years ago. With all the technology that is available to modern day hunters we have made it too easy at times to harvest moose, we need to step back and re-evaluate how we can make sure that moose hunting is still going to be around years from now.



Mike


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Foozer

It's a start. The herd will not recover in just one or two years, and will take several different initiatives applied together to see any results.

I do not believe a bull only season will be any help whatsoever. Yes, a bull can service more than one cow and will travel distances to find them.

However, a cow is not in heat until a bull finds her. She goes into estrous for only a couple days at most. If not bred in that time her next estrous cycle is about a month away. Over 80% of cows are bred during their first cycle. This has evolved to allow the calf the best opportunity for growth being born in late April or May.

You add a month to that because she is bred in her second cycle because no bull was available to breed, the calf is now born in June. This condemns a calf to being undersized only having 2 months until autumn (July/August) And again this leads to poor recruitment. The chances of a calf surviving when bred during a third cycle is minimal as it's born in late June or July.

I like the delayed gun season to allow many bulls to breed many cows relatively unharrassed to travel the necessary distances while being most vulnerable. This should lead to an increase in birth rate in the spring. A shortened calf hunt then allows more calves to survive the hunting season. The hope now being the increase in birth rate and calf survival directly leads to a spike in 1.5 year old adults.

Like I was it's a start, and a move on the right direction.....

In my opinion.


Since we can not call female anglers "fisherman" We should just call 'em hookers.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
walleyslayer

Why not thin the deer heard by allowing multiple deer tags for a reasonable price which would take competition away from the moose.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
levi64

Why not thin the deer heard by allowing multiple deer tags for a reasonable price which would take competition away from the moose.

I agree strongly with this. I've said it many times. I use to have moose on my property here in Lappe and as of about 7 years ago its all deer and alot of them.

I moose hunt yearly, bull tag this year, was out for weeks, only saw one cow by herself. Have seen more wolves the last couple of years than ever, maybe just the right place at the right time, I don't know. Personally I love to hunt moose, but I think its time to give them a break from hunting pressures let them have a break for a few years. I'd like for the next generation to have the chance to moose hunt like we all have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr. Canoehead

I agree that we should have reduced price deer tags to help reduce competition with the moose, but the MNR wants to make money. Same reason we woulld pay $60 or whatever for a calf tag with a shortened season.



Personally I don't see the point in hunting moose at all if the population is low. And I do mean personally, as in that is my choice. I plan to wait patiently for the moose numbers to turn around and stick to bear and deer for the next while. Moose tastes great but at the end of the day I am just not interested in shooting one if the numbers are low. Hope they bounce back sooner rather than later!


  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BASS ASSASSIN

Declining moose population according to aerial survey they say?



I work in first nations communities here in Ontario full time, communities with both with road access and without. When engaging the “guys” around hunting season I can’t help but not to notice a multi-million candle power spotlight in many people’s trucks. “Rumor” ….wink wink… has it that a copious amount of moose are being harvested via what’s known up here as “jacklighting” of course this is merely rumor and speculation. One gentleman told me he himself harvested TEN moose this passing year because “….has a big family…” Other guys told me they took shots at a moose but only scored non vital hits and the “…moose got away” laughing about shooting a moose’s jaw off or in the rear quarter whilst it ran away.



My question becomes, has there been any statistics gathered as to the number of moose being harvested by those hunting on First Nations Lands? Maybe someone can direct me to where I can see those statistics and what the data tables from those studies suggest as far as affecting the “declining” moose population.



Just a side note on this topic, I travel frequently on Northern Highways for work, on some roadways routinely. In doing this I have a hard time not passing a 20km block of highway which has not had its ditches trampled by fresh moose tracks in the winter months. During last years hunting season I observed five moose including a calf and harvested one bull despite also having calf tags. Our group has decided against harvesting calves. Declining moose ??? I suppose.



The nice part about statistics is that data can be manipulated to say whatever you want it to say, just like a fishing lure…its all in the presentation.



Just my .02$


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this