Marina Park Development

[Guest Big Moose]

Just wondering what some of your views are on the plan to clutter it up with condos and hotels.I hardly think this is a way to generate revenue for the city.Personally I think this plan stinks!!!! Surely someone out there has a better idea/plan for the marina,As it stands I and alot of other people think it is an eye sore..

Awaiting your replies,

Moose

[Guest TerryK]

Let me get this straight moose. You think the waterfront park is an eyesore as it sits now??

Personally, I love that park. For an urban park it is beautiful and should be left alone. I'm all for the waterfront development but putting condos and hotels right in the park is a ridiculous idea. There is plenty of room on the old pool 6 property for commercial development. A park is a park and it is owned by the people of this city and CAN NOT be zoned for commercial development. We need more development in this city, but why the hell would they want to put it smack dab in the middle of a park that took 30 years to develop?

[Guest Big Moose]

Personally I think it could be spruced up a bit better I also think the old pool 6 property should be coverted into more green space for the marina with possibly some more walking trails or a peir that people can actually fish from or larger cruise vessels could dock at.I strongly disagree with any plans to put condos or hotels in any part of the marina, If the city was going to do something like this they should have stepped up in the beginning with the original plan to build the casino on the pool 6 land instead of kicking themselves in the a$$ for not doing it. I know a few people who are looking into building a baseball park with a couple of fields over towards the mission island end of things in hopes of attracting larger tournaments to the city,But ofcourse this could take 100 years to get through council before any ground breaking begins.

With all of Thunder Bay's natural beauty I don't see why they wouldn't want to continue on with this theme.Is there any progress with the plan for the proposed skate park at the marina? These types of things I can agree with as it gives people something to do instead of getting into trouble.Ideas like skate parks,rock climbing walls,a moto-cross track on the pool six land would be killer (but I don't think it would last long) and would be money well spent by the city,I think it would be definatly better spent doing something like this rather than polishing up Simpson street.(to me that was like spit shinning a turd)

[Guest TerryK]

Good points Joe. The skate park is still a go but the skate club has run into a few snags with staffing and consulting. It will still happen, hopefully this spring they will move some dirt.

[wampa 18]

The problem in Thunder Bay is that people here have no vision. The city is on the right track with developing marina park and putting condos and a hotel there make smart economic sense. If you actually read the plan, you would see that the commercial area is in a small part of the overall project area. When you visit places with nice waterfronts like Duluth or Winnipeg, the waterfronts have both commercial and recreational areas with boardwalks and paths, condos, houses, apartments and hotels. This is what this city needs, and if everyone here would stop complaining about how crappy this city is and just accept change for what it is, maybe people would actually come here and visit instead of just passing through. The whole not-in-my backyard mentality of this town is pretty sad, especially when it is coming from the arm-chair city planners that think they know better than everyone else. Trying to stop the Flying J, the new ambulance bay on Oliver Rd and Marina park are just a few examples of limited foresight of some of our citizens that seem to have nothing better to do but to complain about how they wish Thunder Bay was better, but don't have any actual suggestions of how to do that accept to not do anything at all.

Sorry about this long rant, but I moved here 10 years ago from a much larger city and love Thunder Bay for what it is...a great place to live with (mostly)great people in it. However, if we want this city to survive in the current economic climate that we have now, some things have to change and change fast or this place will be a ghost town before we know it.

[Guest TerryK]

I have yet to see anyone who is opposed to developing the waterfront, just the location of the hotel and or condos. Simple. There is no good reason to put them right in the middle of the park. Not one reason. It's not fair to lump those opponents to the LOCATION of the condos in with the anti-development types. I myself am not anti development, quite the contrary, but I look at the whole picture and the long term effects, unlike those who just simply fall in line with the rest of the "if we build it they will come" sheep.

[grumpy 2]

For 2-years there were open public forums on the development of the marina. No one really complained until it came time to develop. City council members and the private citizens that sat on the development board and created the best possible plan for the development of the waterfront.

[tbayboy 0]

For 2-years there were open public forums on the development of the marina. No one really complained until it came time to develop. City council members and the private citizens that sat on the development board and created the best possible plan for the development of the waterfront.

Nobody complained because they were just ideas then......I think most of the ideas are good ones. I just can't see how privately owned condos will generate future income beyond tax dollars. Not to mention people who live in those condos will probably complain about noise if we hold venues @ Marina Park, which I think is a great idea.

[Guest TerryK]

Nobody complained because they were just ideas then......I think most of the ideas are good ones. I just can't see how privately owned condos will generate future income beyond tax dollars. Not to mention people who live in those condos will probably complain about noise if we hold venues @ Marina Park, which I think is a great idea.

Ding ding ding!!!! Thank you tbayboy!

If condos are built there, say goodbye to the Blues Fest, the summer concerts, the Canada Day celebrations and anything else that involves large amounts of people. That pubic park will become private in no time. If you paid $350,000 and more for a condo, would you want 10,000 people in your front yard drinking and listening to loud music for three days straight every summer, or another 10,000 on Canada Day?

You're kidding yourself if you think they will not complain worse that the people that are trying to block the condo idea, and the city will cave to them guaranteed, after all, these are the people that are generating the so called income for the city right? These are the big shooters with all the money and EVERYONE knows the people with the money in this city hold all the democratic power. If you think differently you are either new to Thunder Bay of haven't been paying attention for the last 40 years. City council here is well known for making misguided decisions time and time again.

[Cheech 2]

Well said Terry. There were complaints in the past from people away from Marina park about the noise level during the Blues fest.What would the condo residents say? Sort of like people moving close to a highway , or railroad that has been there beforethey moved in,and complaining about the noise. I'm not against development, but I don't think the condo's should go there.

[Guest Big Moose]

Terry I couldn't have said it better myself.I'm not against development in the city just that there has to be a better place than the marina to do so.

[tbayboy 0]

Terry I couldn't have said it better myself.I'm not against development in the city just that there has to be a better place than the marina to do so.

I like that idea about the motocross/snocross track though!

[Guest Wes]

Nobody complained because they were just ideas then......I think most of the ideas are good ones. I just can't see how privately owned condos will generate future income beyond tax dollars. Not to mention people who live in those condos will probably complain about noise if we hold venues @ Marina Park, which I think is a great idea.

Here is an article I stumbled upon which will explain the reason for condos and hotels. Governemtn Funding.

Take a deep breath......

The City of Thunder Bay is on the cusp of some exciting developments at the Marina Park. The Waterfront Development Committee is looking forward to a project that will help revitalize the Port Arthur downtown core, and make the waterfront park even better than it is right now.

There also voices expressing differing opinions on the project. Some of our residents are against what they see as primarily the development of condos and a hotel. Others are seeing the skateboard park as a potential boondoggle. Arguments that the park is just fine as it is, or that the condo and hotel developments should be pulled from the project.

The reality as I see it is that what we are really seeing is a potentially great project struggling because of poor communications from the City's Waterfront Committee, and some members of City Council. When you take the time to read the actual reports, talk to Councillors, and ask questions, what you find is that this is a worthy project. You then get the opinion that perhaps some of the voices opposed to the Waterfront Development may not have done all their homework yet.

Of course it is a lot easier to complain than it is to achieve something new and exciting.

So? What are the facts?

The most controversial part of the project to most people opposed to the park are the hotel and condo development components of the project. Some see this part of the project as either unneeded, or even as elitism.

I have to admit, that was how I felt at first, until I started digging deeper.

The private development is currently a part of the total plan. According to the Waterfront Committee, that investment is the key to making the entire effort successful. Private investment is forecast to total $60 million.

There are two pluses that the private investment brings to the project. The Waterfront Committe sees it as essential to creating a needed level of activity in order to support the park, similar to what other parks in other communities have included in their plans.

How? If there are people living, staying and accessing the park on a twenty-four hour a day basis, that will help in reducing potential problems, including

crime, and vandalism.

While some in Thunder Bay apparently dither and debate, other communities in looking to revitalise their cities are moving forward. In Saint John as an example, the waterfront development will include 800,000 square feet of new commercial floor space, 500,000 square feet of new residential development, up to 190,000 square feet of additional hotel and conference centre space, and space for services, retail and restaurants.

The population of Saint John is about 68,000 people and the metro district population is about 122,389. A smaller centre which has a population nearing that

of the City of Thunder Bay. Perhaps the difference is in leadership, communications and how the people of Saint John see the future? A contrast between optimism and pessimissm?

For Thunder Bay, the hotel and condos, which will occupy three acres of the thirty-five acre Marina Park are the components which will allow the project to

access both federal and provincial funds. Those funds will be needed in order to complete the project. Without that private money, the project would lose $40 million in additional funding from the provincial and federal governments.

The Waterfront Committee states that the presence of mixed use (residential and commercial) development is a key ingredient in creating a dynamic and

interesting public space. The mixed use development has been located to maximize positive economic benefits to the downtown.

Think of this; The entire development is a thirty-five acre park. The condos and hotel development represent three acres of that total. They also represent

almost all of the funding for the entire project. The City's expenditure of $26 million opens the door to $100 million in federal, provincial and private

funds. In other words, without the private investment, the federal and provincial funds are not going to come to the project.

Critics of the plan seem willing either to forgo the upgrades, or are willing to see their taxes go up to pay for the project.

There are complaints that the development of the condos and hotel will somehow eliminate the possibility to see the waterfront, or the Sleeping Giant. Still others are complaining that the hotel and condo development will eliminate access to the shore of the lake.

All I can suggest is that you think this one through for yourself. Take a trip to Hillcrest Park and look at the Giant and out across Lake Superior. Does the Prince Arthur Hotel block your view of the Sleeping Giant? Next, take a drive down Red River Road heading to the waterfront.

Do you notice that from the corner of High Street and Red River Road that you can no longer see the lake? You have to continue heading east until you are at Court Street that you can catch a small glimpse of the lake.

Frankly, unless the plan is for huge sky-scrapers towering fifty or sixty floors tall, the hotel and condos are not likely to block the view of the Lake or

the Sleeping Giant for anyone. If the goal were having unobstructed views of the lake, tearing down the old Port Arthur Collegiate Institute and cutting down all the trees might be in the plan. They are, thankfully not.

The hotel and condo buildings will be seven stories tall, and due to the slope of land, will be no taller than the Prince Arthur Hotel.

In terms of blocking access to the shoreline; according to the Waterfront Committee, "In the existing park, there are 16 metres of public space between the parking lot south of the CN Station and the water, and there is 40 metres of public space between the CN station and the water. The development of the Master Plan will result in 40 metres of public space between the private development and the water and 140 metres of public space between the CN station and the water".

In other words, the hotel and condos will not go down to the water's edge. There will be lots of room for people to walk along the shoreline.

The objections to the private investment are mostly in selling the land to those investors. Here is a possible solution; lease the land on a ninty-nine year lease to the investors. That way the city would still own the land, and if the contract included some important caveats, such as the City having a final say over who operates the hotel, that should be enough to satisfy possible complaints.

Without those funds, many of the ammenities that people have said that they want at the Marina Park would either have to be paid for by the City or left off

of the project. In business, this would be considered as a part of the cost of doing business.

For the City of Thunder Bay, what the private investment allows is that for each dollar the city puts in, there is a multiplier factor of five to one.

Another piece of information that has not made it into the public domain very widely yet is that without those funds, the project has to return to Council for approval to go ahead. This would only make sense as with only $24 million dollars, the entire project would have to change.

Some of those opposed to the project suggest that the condo and hotel could be located across from the park in the downtown Port Arthur core. Councillor at

Large Aldo Ruberto has stated, "If developers wanted to develop on Red River Road, they would have."

Councillor Ruberto's statement while it could be said is right, doesn't really answer the concerns expressed by some in the city who are not buying in on the

vision of the park as expressed by Council and the Waterfront Committee.

When citizens are expressing concerns, the first task of leaders is to listen to those concerns, and then address them.

The plan as approved right now has positioned the buildings on the site to create a central plaza at the foot of Red River Road with the CN Station as the

centrepiece. Between the mixed use development and the water there is over 120 feet of public park that will extend to the south around the new marina and on

toward Pool 6.

The communications strategy is fueling unrest over the project.

For me, looking at the project, I am excited by the possibilities.

For the past twenty some years, before moving back home to Thunder Bay, I lived in Alberta. In Alberta there is a different attitude when it comes to efforts

in developing parks like the marina park. There, the move is more one of lets do it, rather than what in Thunder Bay is a continual battle over doing things.

So, looking at the marina development, City Council has slated $24 million dollars toward the project. The City's expenditure will include expanded public

amenities at the waterfront.

This includes expanded and improved trails, a new stage, a splash pad/sculpture garden, the skate plaza, children's boating, skating/model boat pond,

fountains, a market square and events plaza. There will also be an artisan building, and improved servicing throughout the park.

There will also be renovations to CN building, this will allow for year round use. There will also be a water pavilion with public changerooms and washrooms.

All of these elements of the park will be complimented by 3 major public art projects; the Spirit Garden, The River Story and the Sound Garden.

The rest of the City funds will be for spent on expanding the marina. There will be the addition of three hundred more slips in Tugboat Basin as well as

conversion of Piers 2 and 3 into transient boat slips - in total there will be about five hundred and fifty slips at the marina.

So what are the solutions?

First, for the politicians, a key to this project is communication. Perhaps some of the members of City Council will leap into a leadership position to host a public town hall to allow all the facts to be laid out to our citizens.

Second, it appears to me, at least, that the vast majority of people in our city have yet to make their voices heard.

There is lots of information available online at the City of Thunder Bay website.

My suggestion would be to not take any single person's opinion as gospel, but to get the facts, ask Councillors and the Mayor the questions you have, and then with the facts to make your opinion known.

Thunder Bay could be, as I started this article writing, on the cusp of something really special. Or, conversely, we could be proving to potential investors, and the world that Thunder Bay should be the home of the Museum of No Progress.

Is the Waterfront Plan perfect? Heck I don't think it is, but for our City to start dithering again would be wrong, lets get moving and fix any little issues as we go along!

James Murray

News Director

[grumpy 2]

Thanks Wes

[Guest TerryK]

I like that idea about the motocross/snocross track though!

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. lol We couldn't even convince them to let us put an MX track in a rural area.

[Guest Bronzeback]

Let me just start by saying I am all for development and government funding but I am a bit uneasy about the development project at the marina for a few reasons.

First, and perhaps most important is costs. The 22 million dollars the city has access to for the start up of this project is not surplus but a 15 year loan (i.e. we will be paying it back plus interest). Money that perhaps could be used to fix our ailing roads and maybe keep some of our outdoor pools open, or update our crumbling libraries... but I digress.

Unfortunately, however, we have already payed out 2 million in consulting fees alone for this project to people from away who think they know what is best for us here in Thunder Bay.

Another major problem, perhaps the biggest, is the problem of disposing of contaminated soils, which, if you read the proposal carefully, is an excluded cost and will fall squarely on the shoulders of Thunder Bay alone and not the private sector or the federal government. Pool 6 and area has had it's environmental assessment done (ESA) and was found to be contaminated. As well, the bay and waters proposed in phase 2 of the development plan to become a new marina, have also been found to be contaminated in an ESA report.

What this means is in order for any development of either of these areas to occur the contaminated soil must be removed and the area must pass a further environmental assessment (ESA).

This type of clean up is not cheap. Just a few acres can cost millions of dollars. This means, the cost of removing the contaminated soil and clean up alone could end up costing the city much much more than the entire projected budget as it now stands.

As for the proposed development site for the condos and the hotel, no ESA has been forthcoming from the city even after repeated requests. Why? If an ESA has been done why not let the citizens see the paperwork? Needless to say one is left feeling a bit uneasy about this.

The issues of contaminated soil is one of the reasons no development can be done in the area on and around Pool 6, which, as most would agree, drastically needs development of some sort. In a visual draft of the cities proposal the area on and around Pool 6 is depicted as park land. Not only is the building of park land not included in the present budget, but as you now know making it a park would mean spending millions to decontaminate the area first. Sure looks good on paper though (I sense a theme here, Victoriaville, Casino, Twin Arenas on 61)

These are by no means the only pitfalls in the financial aspect of the development. There are many other maybes, what ifs, escalations, unfactored salaries, and so on and so forth, but I don't want to bore the reader needlessly. The information is there for those who are willing to put the effort into perusing it. These few topics are a good starting point.

Need I go on.

Second,

The matter of selling park land to private enterprise is just, well, so damn American. Travel the shores of Lake Superior on the Canadian side and all you see is park land and wilderness, shared by the people for the people. Pull up to shore in your kayak practically anywhere on the Canadian side and take a stroll. Conversely, you'd be hard pressed to get out of your boat to take a leak on the American side without being hassled by private owners or security guards. I know one small bit of development seems like a drop in the bucket but I do think it is a slippery slope.

Oops, I am out of time but I will add a few other reasons in my next missive...

Again, I can't say it enough that I am all for development in Thunder Bay. We need some revitalization and we need it soon, but this does not mean we need to grasp at the first idea that comes along and hang on for dear life. Let's make use our collective minds and make good sound choices steeped in logic and foresight. Thunder Bay is a fantastic city. Let's lead by example.

Part 2 next time,

BB.

[arvey 154]

i'm not against the developement of marina park,but condos naw.remember this city has always looked after the rich fat cats and this is one of the times.no working man is going to afford to buy a condo down there and yes the rest of the park will become their yard and that will be the end of any kind of celabrations.as for the skate park i'm against it,there are signs along the board walk no skate boards yet when you go for a walk who goes flying by a kid or kids on skate boards.so if they can't obey the rules there.then what will the park end up looking like and who is going to pay for the up keep?one of the proponents for the park developement said just build it and people will flock here,well the same thing was said about our hospital and the doctors would come well that hasn't happened. now if they want to build a hotel why not add the casino to that and go on the old pool 6 site instead of the shoebox they have now.the other question that comes to my mind is,if these people are pushing so hard for such a ludicrous idea then

what's in it for them or one of their buds? usually when dumb things like this happens it means money in somebodies pocket.

just my thought.

arvey

[wampa 18]

Wes you hit the nail on the head. If people just read the dang plan and just didn't follow that old Thunder Bay mentality of I want to do something just not that, this city would be a beautiful and vibrant place. But instead it's it the same old same old around here - "I'm all for development but..."

[arvey 154]

Wes you hit the nail on the head. If people just read the dang plan and just didn't follow that old Thunder Bay mentality of I want to do something just not that, this city would be a beautiful and vibrant place. But instead it's it the same old same old around here - "I'm all for development but..."

grumpy

if you have only been here tens years then you haven't seen the other blunders that have been pulled off by our past city councils.like the auditorium,at the time there was a debate to build this or a multy purpose complex and

tear down the gardens.i was for the multy purpose complex,and at that time there was lots of money around

to do this.instead they fixed up the gardens(because of some whinning south side buissness men)and built the aud.although it's a great place it's use is limited,take a look a duluths complex.then they got suckered into the duel arena out highway 61. it shuold have been part of the complex but a buissnessman suckered the city again. i've been peeved over many things in this city and i do want it to move ahead and yes it's no wonder why nobody wants to come here buissness or other wise.

arvey

[Guest Big Moose]

"I'm all for developement but..."

There has to be a better place than the marina.As I stated previously

[Guest Wes]

Wampa, I can't take credit for that post. As I said. I found the article and thought it was an interesting read and an interesting point of view. Instead of posting the link I just C&P the text into this thread.

[wampa 18]

Oh, well thanks for posting it anyway. And why does there have to be a better place than the marina Moose? They are not just building condos and hotel just because they can. They are trying to make this city a better place for everyone, but a small vocal minority are again trying to ruin it for everyone else.

[Guest TerryK]

Oh, well thanks for posting it anyway. And why does there have to be a better place than the marina Moose? They are not just building condos and hotel just because they can. They are trying to make this city a better place for everyone, but a small vocal minority are again trying to ruin it for everyone else.

Way off base there wampa. It's not a small vocal minority, it's a large vocal majority. And no one's trying to ruin anything, they are just saying don't put the condos in THE PARK! Whats so hard to understand about that? No one said DON'T build them, they are just saying move them over a couple of hundred yards out of the park.

The land is there, why not use it?? Is that so difficult to understand?

[Guest Big Moose]

How are a few condos and a hotel in the marina park going to make this place better for everyone? What would make T.bay a better place for everyone is maybe if the paper mills or hardwood mills or maybe a

Co-Gen powerplant fired up. These are all great economy boosters,And would generate far more revenue for the city rather than a couple poorly placed condos and a hotel.Or maybe we should build a great big hotel right in the middle of the park and when it flops on it's nose we could retro-fit it to hold canada's largest call center.

[wampa 18]

I'm afraid you two are the ones who are way off base. Maybe if you actually read the plan or perhaps voiced your concern when it was put up for public review. It's kind of like the people that don't bother to suhow up and vote and then complain about the government after they have been voted in.