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Gone8to1248

Should the U.S. Goverment Bail Out The Auto Industry?

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Gone8to1248

I would like to hear peoples thoughts on wether the U.S. Goverment should use Tax Payers money to bail out the Auto Industry. I for one say NO. Again it all goes back to the people with the least amount of money being earnned supporting those that make more. The workers don't want to take wage concessions to save thier own jobs so why should I pay to help them keep it

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Guest Nick C

You're right Bernie, you shouldn't have to pay taxes to bail them out. Not when they are flying down to meetings in their "private jets". They (the auto industry) fell into their own pit. They should have started to make more fuel efficient vechicles years ago instead of bringing out more and more gas guzzling vehicles just so that people can go to the store (of course, some need those big vehicles).

Nick C

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Guest Tracker Pro V

It is difficult question being how dependent our economy is on theres and that the Auto industry is a huge part of the economy but if those executives running these ENORMOUS companies want to continue in business they should ask themselves a couple of questions.... Do we want to stay in business and what can we do to stay in business? Maybe all employees including and starting with the executives should take a pay cut, all non essential spending stop imediately and if this is not enough then a bailout should be considered but not before there are some significant changes vin spending at the top of the company.

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Guest TerryK

I say yes. If the big 3 were to go under, the direct and spin off effect on the US economy would be devastating to say the least.

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Bear

Because of the downturn in the economy and all the financial problems in the US and Canada, Hal's Jigs is applying to the US and Canadian Governments for financial assistance, as we did not make as much money last year and are facing a crisis.

Come on be real, if the goverments bail out these companies, then every business that is "hurting" should get some form of financial assistance.

My biggest problem is that these companies have their high flutin executives that should be the first to take a pay cut, give up their multi million dollar yearly bonuses and quit eating filet every night. These people are making a fortune, yet they want thier company bailed out on the backs of taxpayers, who like us work every day, trying to make ends meet.

I say let them figure out their own mess. Sell off cars at a discount, give the taxpayers a break and reorg to meet their finacial resposnibilities.

Bear

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Guest TerryK

All senior Big Three executives have agreed to a pay cut, no bonuses and all company owned private jets will be sold.

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GC 54

In the fall of 2009 I need to buy a new truck for me and a new car for the wife, lets hope the big three are still alive and prices are still low and there is 0% financing. I will do my part to keep the economy going, but dont double dip and take my tax dollars for the bail out and then charge me more tax for the vehicles. The big three in Canada will be bailed out if there are in the US.


George Clark of TEAM CLARK

FIELD STAFF FOR TEAM SHIMANO PRO STAFF FOR D & R SPORTING GOODS PRO STAFF FOR LUND BOATS
Proudly Supported By: G.LOOMIS JACKALL POWER PRO NORTH COUNTRY CYCLE & SPORTS Treasurer of: Thunder Bay BASSmasters

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Guest Patch

Yeah, but their union won't take a pay cut for all their members. In my mind it's either take a small pay cut or else you're out of a job.

Times are changing, people want/need more economical vehicles and the big three are not delivering. They were told to years ago and failed to deliver. You don't hear Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia...asking for money. I understand that there are tonnes of jobs related to the industry but, to me, that's no reason for my tax dollars to keep it going. If a company isn't competitive, it goes bankrupt. That's how capitalism works. You must change with the times or else you are left behind.

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Some Old Guy

Exactamundo Patch, GC and Bear!

Roger


R.T.R. Respect the resource!

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Bear
All senior Big Three executives have agreed to a pay cut, no bonuses and all company owned private jets will be sold.

Nothing like closing the gate after the cows are gone, maybe they should give up their bank accounts they have stashed away for the past years. Sell their big houses and live like the labour that builds the vehicles.

I just have a hard time seeing the fat cats benefit on the backs of the people who just eek out a living.

Bear

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GC 54

If the big 3 want to attract the "O" generation, then bring back the muscle cars with high performance and more efficient engines and go back to the old styles.

Something like my old 69 chev impala convertible 327, 350 HP, 4 on the floor, crager mags, mickey thompson rubber, with an 8 track under the dash! Sorry, but some of you young guys and gals will need to ask your father about the good ole days. Even though we only got 10 miles to the gallon, who worried.


George Clark of TEAM CLARK

FIELD STAFF FOR TEAM SHIMANO PRO STAFF FOR D & R SPORTING GOODS PRO STAFF FOR LUND BOATS
Proudly Supported By: G.LOOMIS JACKALL POWER PRO NORTH COUNTRY CYCLE & SPORTS Treasurer of: Thunder Bay BASSmasters

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Bear
If the big 3 want to attract the "O" generation, then bring back the muscle cars with high performance and more efficient engines and go back to the old styles.

Something like my old 69 chev impala convertible 327, 350 HP, 4 on the floor, crager mags, mickey thompson rubber, with an 8 track under the dash! Sorry, but some of you young guys and gals will need to ask your father about the good ole days. Even though we only got 10 miles to the gallon, who worried.

Tell us what went on in the back seat of that hot rod?

Bear

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Guest TerryK
Nothing like closing the gate after the cows are gone, maybe they should give up their bank accounts they have stashed away for the past years. Sell their big houses and live like the labour that builds the vehicles.

I just have a hard time seeing the fat cats benefit on the backs of the people who just eek out a living.

Bear

I think a lot of people fail to see the big picture because they are blinded by their dislike of corporate executives who make ungodly amounts of money. We need to look at the just who will be effected if the big 3 are shut down.

It's not the senior execs I'm worried about, it's the hundreds of thousands of working class people that will lose their jobs in a country that lost 533,000 jobs in November alone. I have as much disdain for over paid executives as the next guy but the haves and have not's are a part of western society, always have, always will be which is all the more reason we need to keep the working class working. If the taxpayers each need to take a small hit to keep their fellow taxpayers working, then so be it. More workers = more taxpayers.

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Guest Patch

Terry I know where you are coming from, you want to keep the working class working which is fine and dandy.

However here's my hypothetical; let's suppose there's the Stone Tire Companies and they make tires out of three types of rock. The Stone Companies were huge employers, all the quarry workers, truckers, stone carvers...Now people don't like driving on rocks, too hard on the back. People don't want to buy those rock tires anymore, they want something better. Well those Stone Tire Companies would start losing money and then they would want a government bail out. If we gave it to them, then the new and exciting Rubber Tire Company would never exist. Why should it? And when that new Rubber Tire Company starts up, who do you think is going to be working at those new companies?

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Gone8to1248
I think a lot of people fail to see the big picture because they are blinded by their dislike of corporate executives who make ungodly amounts of money. We need to look at the just who will be effected if the big 3 are shut down.

It's not the senior execs I'm worried about, it's the hundreds of thousands of working class people that will lose their jobs in a country that lost 533,000 jobs in November alone. I have as much disdain for over paid executives as the next guy but the haves and have not's are a part of western society, always have, always will be which is all the more reason we need to keep the working class working. If the taxpayers each need to take a small hit to keep their fellow taxpayers working, then so be it. More workers = more taxpayers.

"The Big Picture"? I think the term "Big Smoke Screen" would be better suited. Within the Automotive industry is a disease called greed! This doesn't only attack the people at the top of the food chain it also attacks everyone on down the line. It's hard to tell a person who makes $10 and hour that his taxes are going to be used to keep a guy making $40 and hour working. The Big Picture? Lets take a better look at that. Take a person who is making $30 per hour on his paycheck, by the time you add the FICA (socail security), Workmans Comp,Unemployment Insurance, Health Benifits,Holiday and Vacation Pakages that the company has to pay along with the hourly wage this person is now costing the comapny more like $60 per hour. This increases if overtime pay is included. My rule in Manufacturing has always been "Overtime Paid Is Overtime Billed". that meens if I can't bill it then I can't pay it. It kind of goes along with another old saying. "I'm going broke making money!" If it costs you $1.00 to make something and you sell it for $1.50 then it will support overtime for a limited amount of time, and if your mark up is less than 50% of your cost then your going to loose money each time you sell one.My favoriete one is when you continue to pay someone after they have lost there job! maybe someone could explain the benifit to a company on that one! My thought would be if I'm paying them why not put them to work? Seems logical to me.

So the top execs are willing to take pay cuts and sell the corporate jets! thats a start, but what about the unions and thier employees who jobs are about to be lost? has anyone seen them stepping up and offering to take substantual cuts in pay and benifits to save thier jobs? I think not!

"The Big Picture". Lets take a closer look at that one beyond the "TOP3" and that would be thier suppliers who are really the ones taking the beating. One of the most imprtant thing in any business is a book called "Account Receivables", this book is the most valuable asset the company has to a bank when applying for loans. It's money due for work and merchandise sold. You could have a book worth millions of dollars and still go under if you never get paid and it stops your cash flow. The banks don't go after the people that owe YOU the money when YOUR note comes due. They close your doors and sell off YOUR business to get thier money back or part of it if they can even get that. Then we have corporations inside of corporations inside corporations that are all set-up to protect thier assets from things like this happenning. Who owns the buildings? Who owns the equipment? Who do the employees actually work for and jst what assetts does that corporation own? In theory the "TOP3" could collapse and the only loosers will be the general public and the hourly workers for most part. In theory the "TOP3" could collapse and still wind up ownning the buildings and equipment and start all over fresh because of corporate structuring. The suppliers are gone under and the employees are gone but they are still there.

So under the "Big Smoke Screen" just ask the guy who is making the $10 and hour with NO medical insurance and is wondering how he is going to pay his bills and see that his kids get medical care what he thinks should happen. I wouldn't be to surprise with the answer though.

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grumpy

The BIG-3 need to go into bankruptcy and be restructured that’s the only way that all interested parties will get their say. If the governments hand out checks it will not change their ways and the only ones that will profit are the big wigs. If they restructure the unions, bondholders, government, debtholders, and shareholders will all be part of the negotiations.

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Gone8to1248
The BIG-3 need to go into bankruptcy and be restructured that's the only way that all interested parties will get their say. If the governments hand out checks it will not change their ways and the only ones that will profit are the big wigs. If they restructure the unions, bondholders, government, debtholders, and shareholders will all be part of the negotiations.

Well here is something we both agree on 100% Doug! LOL

Bernie

Also well stated! Sometimes it's cheaper to re-build than to try and patch and repair.

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Guest TerryK

So what you are saying bernie, is that you don't like unions and you don't think people in the auto industry should be making $30.00 per hour?

If a union and it's members can NEGOTIATE a contract that pays them $30.00 per hour plus full benefits, what's wrong with that? the company knows what it's going to cost them when they sign. If they don't think they can afford it no one can force them to sign. I can see how the workers can be blamed for getting everything they can for their families. I've been a union man all of my working life and you can't convince me there is a better way.

Take a pay cut to guarantee your job? Ask the over 10,000 people in the softwood lumber industry in the Thunder Bay area that did just that when the company told them they would keep their jobs, but less that 2 years later they were all looking for new jobs. Ask the 55 year old guy that no one will hire because he worked in a mill for 25 years and has no other skills.

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Guest Tracker Pro V

.... a pay cut from all levels especially at the top is better then no pay cheque at all. There needs to be a change in the entire way they do business if they are going to continue to operate and a bailout will be a good BAND AID but How long will it last without a real change.

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Guest Jody

Why should the government bail out the big three? Isnt it the oil companies that need these automobiles travelling down the roads? Ask them for a loan first or take over the auto companies. See if they want the headache, if they say no then maybe the government will already have their answer regarding the request for a loan. just my 2 cents

jody

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Guest TerryK
Isnt it the oil companies that need these automobiles travelling down the roads? Ask them for a loan first or take over the auto companies. See if they want the headache, if they say no then maybe the government will already have their answer regarding the request for a loan. just my 2 cents

jody

Actually, that's a good idea! lol

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Gone8to1248

Another option could be let the employees(union members) buy into the company and make it an employee owned business. I'll bet the top people wouldn't be getting "Golden Parachute" type deals and multi-million dollar bonuses. And just who gives these people the okay to take that bonus? The shareholders? Maybe companies should be run more like baseball. When a team is doing bad, who is usually the first one to go? The manager, not the players.

If the Auto Industry is going to survive it's going to take changes on all sides and that doesn't just meen employees and owners. The way things are being done needs to be looked at and some of the rules that are out here need a hard look at. Just what has ISO done to help? What affect has it had on Industry. All of a sudden after 30 years in business and a good track record of making a quality item you now have to be ISO to do business with these companies if you want to stay in business. his little feature could cost up to $30k-60k to get this qualification. If your a small business with a few employees, who is going to pay for it and where is the money going to come from?

As far as unions go Terry, please don't compare the Canadian unions to American ones. Yours are much better up there and are open to anyone. Down here it's a matter of who you know or who you blow in my opinion. Try getting into the electrical or plumbing unions. Unless your related to some one already in one forget it! At least up there a lot of your jobs require some kind of formal trainning and that is open to anyone who wants it. I have been a union member before and I have also been in management that has negotiated with unions, so I have been on both sides of the fence and at times have agreed and disagreed with both side.

In manufacturing it's ussually the people who make the product that make the least money on it. try coming up with an idea and make that idea. Now try to get your idea in a store. You will find most doors closed to you because you aren't established. So now you need to find a distributor. he is going to mark you idea up probrably 2-3 times the cost and sell it to the store who is going to mark it up again. By the time this is all done your $1.00 idea is being sold for $10.00. So you have two choices. Sell it yourself where you can with a marked up price or sell it to distributors at a lower price. If the Automotive Industry made everything inhouse and didn't have to use suppliers and sub-contractors, how much would a $40,000 car actually cost and what could it really be sold for?

Just my opinion.

Bernie

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Guest TerryK
You're right Bernie, you shouldn't have to pay taxes to bail them out. Not when they are flying down to meetings in their "private jets". They (the auto industry) fell into their own pit. They should have started to make more fuel efficient vechicles years ago instead of bringing out more and more gas guzzling vehicles just so that people can go to the store (of course, some need those big vehicles).

Nick C

They actually have been for years Nick, but no one was buying them. There are tens of thousands of brand new electric and hybrid vehicles sitting in huge yards unsold, and unwanted by the public.

These GM EV-1s are headed for the shredder:

014017.1-lg.jpg

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