Brook Trout lakes

[Guest TerryK]

These lakes were already closed. They just changed the regs to re-open them. If you look into the science on these fragile lakes, you'll see that it is indeed very possible to severely damage a population of these types of lakes in a very short time. Once a group of meat fishermen figure out the trick to fishing each lake, and they will, the fish become vulnerable. The thing is, the "experts" in the area are responsible for closing the lakes to winter fishing to protect them, but it was the experts somewhere else who opened it back up. The science showed these lakes needed to be protected so they were, but streamlining opened them back up with no science involved. Exactly the opposite of what was done to the spring bear hunt which was closed with no science to prove a need.

Fact is, if it wasn't for certain experts, there would be no Nipigon Brook Trout fishery or north shore Rainbow Trout for anyone to enjoy.

[seppi 19]

Guys maybe the answer is in shortened seasons on natural lakes and streams at times when the brook trout are least vulnerable..But personally I leave these stocked lakes to family fisher people,you can't tell me you get the same thrill out of catching a stock fish to a natural one.....Part of the thrill is nowing your quarry and actually hunting them out just trying to find them...Personally I don't handle the fish at all unless it's deemed picture worthy....But first and formost I enjoy these types of threads,because I believe I may have even learned a thing or two !!

Seppi

[Guest Dan]

Seppi, you raised a good point about the desire of fisherman as far away as the US and southern Ontario, wanting Nipigon strain fish in their back yards. I say, if you want to catch a Nipigon Brook Trout, then come to Nipigon. From what I've read, I believe that the MNR had a major impact on the low Lake Nipigon Brook Trout population by taking out the breeders for hatcheries. Some of the major spawning shoals were down to a couple of pairs of spawners at one time. If you can get your hands on the RAP (Remedial Action Plan) publication titled "A historical summary of the Nipigon area with an emphasis on fisheries" (or something very close to that), then do so. There's some mind boggling facts in there dating back to the late 1800's until the 1990's. There's 3 accounts of Brook Trout being caught that were bigger than Dr. Cooks fish. One was over 20 lbs. In fact, if you, or anyone else can't find this publication, then I'd be happy to lend you mine. Al Muir has it at the moment.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Nipigon system is something very special. In fact there's no other place like it on the planet. It's very much worth protecting, whatever that involves. Certainly there will be arguments on what is best for the system. Personally I'd like to see the catch and keep size raised to 24 inches. A high percentage of these fish will get that big if given the chance. At 24 inches, these fish are most likely at the end of their life cycle. A handful will live a year or two longer and get to be 26", 28" and possibly even bigger. But until we give them the chance, this will be a very rare opportunity for these one of a kind fish.

[Guest BannedCore]

Dan you are right about the M.N.R bringing back the population of the Nipigon Brookies. When I was living in Sault Ste Marie and stricktly fishing for Brookies there were always stories about lakes that had the Nipigon strain in them. I don't know if this is true or not but there are some monsters in the algoma district. I personally know of a few that came close to breaking the record and had one once that would not fit through my 8 inch hole. I still go down there every winter to fish them. I personally don't keep many fish and I don't use a landing net. At the end of the day it is up to fishermen to be responsable for how they fish. I just think it would be sad if we all had to fish stocked fish because they just aren't the same. Also the coaster population in Lake Superior is doing well and we can thank Nipigon M.N.R for that.

[Guest Dan]

Dan you are right about the M.N.R bringing back the population of the Nipigon Brookies. When I was living in Sault Ste Marie and stricktly fishing for Brookies there were always stories about lakes that had the Nipigon strain in them. I don't know if this is true or not but there are some monsters in the algoma district. I personally know of a few that came close to breaking the record and had one once that would not fit through my 8 inch hole. I still go down there every winter to fish them. I personally don't keep many fish and I don't use a landing net. At the end of the day it is up to fishermen to be responsable for how they fish. I just think it would be sad if we all had to fish stocked fish because they just aren't the same. Also the coaster population in Lake Superior is doing well and we can thank Nipigon M.N.R for that.

Actually hardcorefishing, the Coaster Brook Trout was recently put on the endangered species list by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. It is doing fairly well in the Nipigon area (more kudos the the Nipigon MNR), but you must remember that the Coaster Brook Trout was once a lake Great Lakes wide phenomina. It isn't any more. Not even close. There are now only 4 US streams that host Lake Superior Coaster Brook Trout. Three of them are on Isle Royal, which is in the middle of Superior. They were once common in many streams in Lakes Superior, Huron and Michigan. Geography is probably the reason that the Coaster is doing well up here. Nipigon is the northernmost point of the Lakes. It is not heavily populated which, despite what some of us think, means little fishing pressure. Because of it's geographical location, it also happens to be the best place on the great lakes for them to thrive. One of the reasons that Nipigon is a prime Brook Trout area is the fact the the latitudinal coordinates for growth flow right through the center of Lake Nipigon. In other words, Lake Nipigon has the best possible summer and winter season length required for maximum growth. Add that to the fact that Nipigon has many of the much needed springs or upwellings needed for spawning, and you have the perfect Brook Trout factory. The Nipigon River is a relatively short river that is perfect for Brook Trout survival and reproduction. It flows from a deep cold lake and its waters stay cool throughout it's 40 mile journey to Lake Superior. There's plenty of springs, which are essential to reproduction along the way. How rare is this? As I said earlier, there's only one place on the planet like this. It must be protected at all costs.

[seppi 19]

Now ,what I seem to be getting from you guys is that the major spawners of brook trout are under 22 inches in length ,is this what you guys are telling me ?

seppi

[Guest Dan]

Now ,what I seem to be getting from you guys is that the major spawners of brook trout are under 22 inches in length ,is this what you guys are telling me ?

seppi

I honestly don't know the answer to that Seppi, but I'll take an educated guess. A 22 inch fish is an older fish. An 18 inch fish is a teenager. I'd guess that the 18" fish is a more prolific reproducer than the 22" fish.

[Guest Beamer]

I honestly don't know the answer to that Seppi, but I'll take an educated guess. A 22 inch fish is an older fish. An 18 inch fish is a teenager. I'd guess that the 18" fish is a more prolific reproducer than the 22" fish.

18 to 22 inch range does represent the bulk of the spawners, I have kept detailed notes since the regulation was changed and have info on over 500 fish, and the average size has definately increased, so has the numbers of fish, there is also a marked increase in the number of larger fish and a decrease in the "rod hours per fish". A very large percentage of the fish now showing up are in that 18 to 22 inch range. These fish for the most part seem to top out around the 24" mark, they do grow larger, but not a high percentage. While the size increase for the regulation has limited harvest which some anglers see as a lose, it has increased anglers opportunity in catching more and quality fish which is what we want isn't it? Remeber we can have quality fisheries we just have to ask ourselves as anglers How badly do we really want it and are we prepared to pay the price.

My two cents

Beamer

[Guest TerryK]

If Beamer says so, it must be true! The guy knows Brook Trout! As Beamer says, the bulk of the spawners are 18-22 inches, but the larger fish will still be very viable breeders, it's just that they are fewer in number because of natural and angling mortality.

One other thing. Thanks to the MNR and various groups and individuals, OPG entered into a minimum flow agreement years ago that promised to keep water flowing over Brook Trout spawning beds that were formerly left high and dry during peak spawning and incubation periods. This alone has added greatly to the survival of the Nipigon Brookies.

Great thread with lots of info, but we have gotten away from the original topic a bit. lol

[Some Old Guy 968]

Keep it going! I'm learnin' here!

Roger

[seppi 19]

That might be your problem right there,believing in one man's opinion,all be it Beamer does wave a heavy bat !!!! I believe this holds true for the jessie lake system......but for the Lake Nipigon and river system above and below the Pine and Cameran Falls Dams .....These are slightly larger ,from 21 to 26 inches.....Which again comes back to generics of a spieces and or system depending on forage and habitat....Just look at the Lake Trout of Jessie lake,lots but not very big in size !!!

Seppi

[seppi 19]

In no ways can I dispute with Beamer,I've seen the pictures !!! (LOL)

Seppi

[Guest kingjames_2nd]

If you can get your hands on the RAP (Remedial Action Plan) publication titled "A historical summary of the Nipigon area with an emphasis on fisheries" (or something very close to that), then do so. There's some mind boggling facts in there dating back to the late 1800's until the 1990's. There's 3 accounts of Brook Trout being caught that were bigger than Dr. Cooks fish. One was over 20 lbs. In fact, if you, or anyone else can't find this publication, then I'd be happy to lend you mine. Al Muir has it at the moment.

I searched google and couldn't find it. I checked the -- > Library.lakeheadu.ca searcher and found:

Historical literature review of the Nipigon area with emphasis on fisheries...

Author(s): Wilson, Leona.

Title: Historical literature review of the Nipigon area with emphasis on fisheries from 1654 to 1990 / compiled by Leona Wilson. --

Published/Created: Ottawa : Remedial Action Plan, Nipigon Bay, 1990.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Location: Paterson Gov. Pubs. CODOC (Ground Fl.)

Call Number: CA2ON EV256 90H43

Status: Available

Copies/Volumes: 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Location: Paterson Regional Collection (NSRC - 5th Fl.) non-circ

Call Number: TD 227 W74 1990

Status: Available

Copies/Volumes: 2

I guess I've got some reading to do! It's too bad I don't put this much effort into finishing assignments or else I might be in bed rather than perusing TBF... and finishing assignments.

[Guest Beamer]

That might be your problem right there,believing in one man's opinion,all be it Beamer does wave a heavy bat !!!! I believe this holds true for the jessie lake system......but for the Lake Nipigon and river system above and below the Pine and Cameran Falls Dams .....These are slightly larger ,from 21 to 26 inches.....Which again comes back to generics of a spieces and or system depending on forage and habitat....Just look at the Lake Trout of Jessie lake,lots but not very big in size !!!

Seppi

I got the information on spawning size from Alan's web site which I believe is MNR information on South Bays spawning population which shows 60% of the spawners in the 18-22" range. I also know that Alan and I compared our size /catch rate and size distribution, and Alan actually put his into a graph they all showed a high proportion of the population we were catching through out the Lake and River fell into that size range also. The 18" reg for the lake was only protecting 27% of the spawning population. These fish are rare gems in our modern fishing world, they need protection so all can enjoy, as Dan said it is like no place on the planet and I agree. The smalller lakes with natural populations are no less valuable and were protected during the winter before the regs changed lets just keep it that way. They are far too valuable to be a slip through the cracks.

My two cents

Beamer

[RLK 38]

I can't believe you guys,you should be more worried about this stupid 22" length requirement .....Forcing anglers to keep the Bigger brood stock and in the same motion handling tons of more so called "FRAGILE" brook trout under 22" to find a legal keeper.... We have enough trouble fighting PETA and other groups who want to stop fishing and hunting....Natural lakes are hard to get too .....So if a few ice fisherman make it there, what are you going to do,shut all the lakes down? Sorry guys, I got a chip on my shoulder already,I'm from this area and if they put another Provincial Park in the Nipigon area I'll puke !!! That's just my opinion !

Seppi

With the 22" limit it is basically a no kill. I feel for the kids who can't even bring one fish home.

[Guest TerryK]

With the 22" limit it is basically a no kill. I feel for the kids who can't even bring one fish home.

I understand your concern, but if it is explained to the kids why they don't need to kill such a gem of a fish, they quickly understand and become advocates for the fish. I did this with my children. They understand that if they want to keep fish to eat, we can fish for walleyes or perch, but as far as trout go, they refuse to even consider keeping even rainbow trout. When my son caught his first steelie years ago, I gave him the option of taking it home show off but he never hesitated, even berating me for talking too long to take a picture. He respects the incredible beauty and rarity of these fish and would never think of keeping one, no matter what the size.

Kids are far more understanding these days about conservation and preservation of species. The 22in brook trout minimum hasn't effected the amount of people fishing the Nipigon area any more than the 27in minimum on rainbow trout has effected the number of people on the Neebing/MacIntyre river system. Kids still love the thrill of just being out fishing for a challenging species and some I talk to hold these fish in high reverence if not because of what they've been taught then simply from the fact that they are considered important enough to be protected. Gone (well I hope soon!) are the days of parents teaching children that success of a fishing trip is measured on how many fish hit the freezer at the end of the day. It's all about getting the kids out fishing and enjoying time with family in nature, not about who killed the biggest or the most.

btw seppi, for me it's not about one man's opinion, it's about reading all the pertinent data and science on the subject, it's about talking to fishermen, bios, COs and anyone else who has a take on the subject, it's about many years spent fishing the area and it's about getting involved with groups that take action on these issues. The combination of all these things is how I come to my conclusions and opinions. I'm not easily swayed one way or the other unless I have science and data to back it up.

[RLK 38]

I understand your concern, but if it is explained to the kids why they don't need to kill such a gem of a fish, they quickly understand and become advocates for the fish. I did this with my children. They understand that if they want to keep fish to eat, we can fish for walleyes or perch, but as far as trout go, they refuse to even consider keeping even rainbow trout. When my son caught his first steelie years ago, I gave him the option of taking it home show off but he never hesitated, even berating me for talking too long to take a picture. He respects the incredible beauty and rarity of these fish and would never think of keeping one, no matter what the size.

Kids are far more understanding these days about conservation and preservation of species. The 22in brook trout minimum hasn't effected the amount of people fishing the Nipigon area any more than the 27in minimum on rainbow trout has effected the number of people on the Neebing/MacIntyre river system. Kids still love the thrill of just being out fishing for a challenging species and some I talk to hold these fish in high reverence if not because of what they've been taught then simply from the fact that they are considered important enough to be protected. Gone (well I hope soon!) are the days of parents teaching children that success of a fishing trip is measured on how many fish hit the freezer at the end of the day. It's all about getting the kids out fishing and enjoying time with family in nature, not about who killed the biggest or the most.

btw seppi, for me it's not about one man's opinion, it's about reading all the pertinent data and science on the subject, it's about talking to fishermen, bios, COs and anyone else who has a take on the subject, it's about many years spent fishing the area and it's about getting involved with groups that take action on these issues. The combination of all these things is how I come to my conclusions and opinions. I'm not easily swayed one way or the other unless I have science and data to back it up.

I have been a participating member of the NSSA for almost 30 years. I know all about science and data. I am a huge advocate for catch and release. I still belive that a kid or any one should have a choice to keep a fish. Not everyone fishes the Nipigon or Superior and has a chance to catch a 22" fish and if they did most wouldn"t keep it any way. I still believe that the kids who fish the streams should have a CHOICE to keep a fish if they want. For them a 22" fish is not a reality.

[Guest BannedCore]

Wow this topic has really taken off! I told my wife that I was not going to say any more on this subject but I can't resist. Lake Nipigon, Lake Superior, Nipigon River and all other tributaries are set up to ensure the protection of the Brook trout population with the 1 fish 22' rule. Also if you read the regs on Lake Nipigon there are many other safe guards in place. I believe the original topic was about the natural inland lakes. I believe the inland lakes in zone 7 are just fine and are not under any threat, nor will they be if we leave them open. The pressure is just not there and lots of these lakes are too hard to access. The people who think different probally have never tried to go to some of these lakes. I have no problem eating some Broookies once in a while especially if it was harmed and might not live anyway, after all fish were created to be food for humans to survive. If we really wanted a healthy Brook trout population we would not be stocking Salmon and Rainbow trout in our system as they are not native to the area and compete with our beloved Brookies. We would never stock them in a natural Brook trout lake so why do we put them in the other systems?

[JustMe 5]

I understand your concern, but if it is explained to the kids why they don't need to kill such a gem of a fish, they quickly understand and become advocates for the fish. I did this with my children. They understand that if they want to keep fish to eat, we can fish for walleyes or perch, but as far as trout go, they refuse to even consider keeping even rainbow trout. When my son caught his first steelie years ago, I gave him the option of taking it home show off but he never hesitated, even berating me for talking too long to take a picture. He respects the incredible beauty and rarity of these fish and would never think of keeping one, no matter what the size.

Kids are far more understanding these days about conservation and preservation of species. The 22in brook trout minimum hasn't effected the amount of people fishing the Nipigon area any more than the 27in minimum on rainbow trout has effected the number of people on the Neebing/MacIntyre river system. Kids still love the thrill of just being out fishing for a challenging species and some I talk to hold these fish in high reverence if not because of what they've been taught then simply from the fact that they are considered important enough to be protected. Gone (well I hope soon!) are the days of parents teaching children that success of a fishing trip is measured on how many fish hit the freezer at the end of the day. It's all about getting the kids out fishing and enjoying time with family in nature, not about who killed the biggest or the most.

btw seppi, for me it's not about one man's opinion, it's about reading all the pertinent data and science on the subject, it's about talking to fishermen, bios, COs and anyone else who has a take on the subject, it's about many years spent fishing the area and it's about getting involved with groups that take action on these issues. The combination of all these things is how I come to my conclusions and opinions. I'm not easily swayed one way or the other unless I have science and data to back it up.

I agree with RLK some kids don't have the means to go walleye or perch fishing and they walk or bike to the streams. It would be nice if they could keep a fish.

[Guest BannedCore]

The fact that they included the tributaries in that rule has upset many people because streams are an easy place to bring your kids and not everybody has a boat. I can imagine the kids who have shed a tear because they could not keep and eat their fish. Those that hunt and fish need to stick together even if we disagree on certain issues because the "Antis" are out there just waiting to take away all of our rights to hunt and fish.

[Guest Guidofisherman]

I have to weigh in on this one. While brook trout fishing is my passion, I don’t claim to be an expert, but I do like to gather research and the facts to find out what happened to these fish. I’m going to limit my comments to the information I have gathered on Lake Nipigon/River brook trout only. Data sources: MNR, RAP, research books and personal tagging information gathered over the years.

 Beamer is the expert in this area and our combined data (we tag for the Nipigon MNR) indicates there are more and bigger fish in the past few years on the Nipigon. My guess is because of appropriate management and a change in fishing practices to more “C&R”.

 Our data indicates since the reg. changes, the catch rate has increased for the number of hours fished. MNR data from ’93 to ’03 indicated increased rod hours and angling pressure and increased catch and keep at that time which peaked in ’01 then began to decline.

 As Randy stated, I have graphed my catches to compare to the MNR charts and they are very similar, not that I didn’t trust them, just confirmed it. I’m not trying to hijack the thread or site, just provide some information. Here is a link to the information I gathered. http://members.shaw.ca/amuir/research.htm

 Spawners are not necessarily less than 22”, but the bulk of the population certainly is. Only 13% of the fish are over 22”. This 22” size limit protects 87% of the population. Interestingly, only 1% of the population is over 24”. If the Nipigon system had not been managed, it would be gone.

 Historically, populations were measured in thousands, now populations are measured in the low hundreds, even in the prime breeding areas.

 Biologists have been a success story of the Nipigon area with flow regulations and size limits based on data while the US Coaster brook trout are endangered, Just look at the historical maps.

 Dan: I still have your RAP book and it is an excellent historical look at the Nipigon area. I also do not support removing spawners from Nipigon shoals and spawning beds for export. I have documented an increase in pike in key spawning areas in Lake Nipigon and wonder if this is one recent factor in the historical decline of the brook trout.

There is no place like it and no fish like a wild brookie. Personally, I have chosen not to keep any of these brook trout, but don’t dispute the right of other fishermen or children to keep one over 22”. I only hope that the MNR continue to effectively manage the Brook Trout with input from fishermen and local organizations dedicated to preserving this legacy. This isn’t a new discussion; it has been going on for years. I just hope it continues for years to come.

“Unless it is cherished, the glory of 'Nepigon' may fade, and the story of its marvellous attractions may become a tradition of the past.” A.R.Macdonough 1889

Alan

[RLK 38]

The fact that they included the tributaries in that rule has upset many people because streams are an easy place to bring your kids and not everybody has a boat. I can imagine the kids who have shed a tear because they could not keep and eat their fish. Those that hunt and fish need to stick together even if we disagree on certain issues because the "Antis" are out there just waiting to take away all of our rights to hunt and fish.

The reason for closing the streams is because DNA tests prove that Coasters and Brook Trout are one and the same below the first barrier(all coasters). The NSSA constitution states the preservation of cold water fishers not the elimination of catch and keep. I seen a home vidio last year of the mouth of one of the north shore streams from the fall before and it was estamated that ther were close to 150 large coasters wating for the water to rise to go up and spawn. This was only one small river. I have fished the north shore for 30 years, 25 to 30 days each year and i have never caught a 22" Coaster. There is not a heavy run of these fish in the spring or summer. The only time they are vulnerable is in the fall and the season is closed anyway. I still believe that a person should have the choice to keep a fish. We have a one fish limit on steelhead and i see very few people complaining or keeping a fish. But they still have a choice.

[Guest TerryK]

All excellent opinions and observations. Thanks for chiming in Alan, you're input is valued.

Now, at the risk of killing this discussion, can we stick to the topic? (or should we start a new thread?)

[JustMe 5]

Keep it going! I'm learnin' here!

Roger

[Guest Dan]

There's some great input here guys. I'm enjoying this thread. Thanks to all who have participated.