Do you know Gordon Gibson of Nolalu?

[Guest Jimithy]

http://www.chroniclejournal.com/editorial/...stry-shown-work

Gordon wrote in the Chronicle Journal that he now supports the Long Gun Registry because it

was helpful in arresting the kid who robbed the credit union recently.

For a recap see: http://tbnewswatch.com/news/Default.aspx?cid=128323

By Jamie Smith, tbnewswatch.com

The long-gun registry did help police arrest a man suspected of robbing a bank Wednesday, but

a city police inspector says it was only one tool used to help find a suspect.

Thunder Bay Police Service community services Insp. Scott Smith said police canvassed the area

around the Provincial Alliance Credit Union after it was robbed by a man armed with a shotgun

Wednesday morning.

Officers found the shotgun they believed was used in the hold-up, which led police to the residence

of the person the gun was registered to. Police arrested a 21-year-old man as a result.

But because the individual was known to people at the bank, Smith said police probably would have

found the man regardless.

"Had the registry not been there the witnesses may have led us down the same path anyway. But

certainly it’s very helpful in that regard," said Smith.

While the registry is a good tool, Smith said it’s important for officers to remember that just because

it says a residence doesn’t have guns, doesn’t mean it’s true.

Even though a registered gun was used in this robbery, Smith said the registry is usually only used

by law-abiding citizens.

Smith added that a lot of guns used in crimes are stolen or purchased on the black market.

"There are still a lot of firearms out there that are stolen," said Smith. "Realistically people who are

committing crimes quite often don’t use firearms that are traced to them."

The suspected armed robber appeared in bail court Friday and was released with conditions.

So if anybody knows Gordon, please inform him that I have lined up some quotes from the above

story to help him gain perspective on his beloved Long Gun Registry.

• Even though a registered gun was used in this robbery, Smith said the registry is usually only used by law-abiding citizens.
• Smith added that a lot of guns used in crimes are stolen or purchased on the black market.
• "Realistically people who are committing crimes quite often don’t use firearms that are traced to them."
• Smith said it’s important for officers to remember that just because it says a residence doesn’t have guns, doesn’t mean it’s true.
• But because the individual was known to people at the bank, Smith said police probably would have found the man regardless.

So even though this time the registry helped TBay police, they admit it is clearly not a reliable tool!

In most cases it would be useless tool and probably not further the investigation.

Additionally this tool is built and implemented through infringements on regular law abiding citizen's charter rights to privacy and property.

This Long Gun Registry is incredibly wasteful costing the Canadian tax payers over 2 Billion Dollars since it started.

For those of you who don't know, The Long Gun Registry does not affect the licencing system in place which requires gun owners to take a safety course and obtain a Possession and Acquisition Licence (PAL or restricted PAL). Hand guns and various Restricted long guns already were and still would be included in their own registry.

The Long Gun Registry is un-needed and realistically will not help solve or prevent the majority of crimes. Just ask Insp. Scott Smith of T bay police services.

Lets be realistic, why do you really support the Long Gun Registry?

[Guest Ol Big Moose]

Um, in this case it didn't just help solve this case, the gun registry did solve the entire case. The cop stating that they "probably" would have solved it anyways by asking around and finding people who knew him. How much time and money would be spent on this investigation... Yes I know its probably not as much as $2 billion, but that money has already been spent if not on this on something just a frivilous. The problem is that the registry can be more of a preventative tool, removing guns from an unstable person or violent person before they are able to use them. Now there is no way to tell if this had stopped something from happening or even if they weren't taken away if anythign would have happened in the first place...

At least give credit where credit is due, in this case the gun registry worked, it did its purpose. Whether they had caught him without it eventually is irrelevant. Like a lock on a door, it keeps the honest people out, there is no lock in the world that is completely secure. Its like anything else in crime, if criminals want to commit a crime nothing is going to stop that, they will always find a way around the law. The registry lets the police focus on the criminals and worry less about the rest of us, if you aren't gonna be committing a crime how is the registry such an inconvienience?

Forgive any and all spelling errors

[Guest Ol Big Moose]

Well I guess thats it then folks the multi billion dollar long gun registry has now been justified by solving a case. Give me a break and pull your head out of a liberals mule!!!!!! Mule what is that,this censorship is getting a bit out of hand.

[Guest Jimithy]

(I left your name off the quote that I copied from moose in fairness because you look like you deleted your post to maintain your anonymity.)

Um, in this case it didn't just help solve this case, the gun registry did solve the entire case. The cop stating that they "probably" would have solved it anyways by asking around and finding people who knew him. How much time and money would be spent on this investigation... Yes I know its probably not as much as $2 billion, but that money has already been spent if not on this on something just a frivilous. The problem is that the registry can be more of a preventative tool, removing guns from an unstable person or violent person before they are able to use them. Now there is no way to tell if this had stopped something from happening or even if they weren't taken away if anythign would have happened in the first place...

At least give credit where credit is due, in this case the gun registry worked, it did its purpose. Whether they had caught him without it eventually is irrelevant. Like a lock on a door, it keeps the honest people out, there is no lock in the world that is completely secure. Its like anything else in crime, if criminals want to commit a crime nothing is going to stop that, they will always find a way around the law. The registry lets the police focus on the criminals and worry less about the rest of us, if you aren't gonna be committing a crime how is the registry such an inconvienience?

Forgive any and all spelling errors

I guess my point was that normal criminals do not use registered guns. I didn't come out and say it but I let the article do the talking. Criminals do not register guns.

Now I should point out that yes in this instance the accused did use a gun that was registered... but I doubt that to be the norm and the police inspector in the article indicated the same beliefs.

You have indicated that the registry is more of a preventative tool... which is something the Liberal Party and media like to focus on as well. A tool to stop unstable people from possessing firearms before they can use them in a rational way. I don't mean any disrespect to the victim or their family and I certainly don't want to make light of this case but please see the following article:

http://www.chroniclejournal.com/content/ne...-suicide-weapon

In this case, Joseph Lavoie, from Thunder Bay had his guns removed because he was deemed to be un-stable. Surely enough though, he had possesion of an unregistered firearm, and he used it in a violent way. Thats not to say that had all of the firearms been removed from the situation, he wouldn't have used a knife or simply his fists to commit the same crimes... Now there is no way to tell if this had stopped something from happening or even if they weren't taken away if anything would have happened in the first place... The fact is that even with a registry in place Joseph got his hands on an unregistered gun and used it maliciously. Why did this happen if the gun registry is a valuable preventative tool? It happened because criminals don't usually use registered guns to commit crimes.

You said that the long gun registry didn't help solve this case for the police but that it actually did the solving for the police. You say I should give credit where due. I will commend the T Bay police for using the registry as one of the tools at their disposal to try and track down a known criminal who robbed a bank in daylight with no mask. I will also say that they would have solved it right quick too with out the use of the Long Gun Registry.

Finally, you said:

The registry lets the police focus on the criminals and worry less about the rest of us, if you aren't gonna be committing a crime how is the registry such an inconvienience?

I would say I disagree. Rather than focusing on criminals, the Long Gun Registry is spending billions in resources to acutely monitor the law abiding citizens who actually register guns and would most likely not commit a crime. Further more the inconvenience to the law abiding firearms owner is:

• The fact that we are required to register and carry proof of our registration certificate in the form of a piece of flimsy paper that can be lost or destroyed accidentally.
• In the event that we wreck or lose our certificate we successfuly become criminals and a reverse onus is placed on us to prove we are innocent while real criminals are innocent until proven guilty
• Without any charges, trial, or conviction the police have the ability to confiscate my hard earned and rightfully paid for property. Confiscation without any compensation.
• and all of this for a false sence of security and the creation of new paper criminals everywhere.

Why don't we spend these resources on programs that are designed to identify and locate unstable people and to get them the help they need. Our licencing system is already a registry of legal gun owners. I say we create a people registry of with a ranking system to determine who is mentally unstable and who is not. Those who are not would not be allowed to possess firearms! Simple enough? In this manner perhaps we could stop the next Joseph Lavoie or Kimveer Gill,(Dawson Colllege Mtl.) and save potential victims in a way that the Long Gun Registry could not.

I suspect many people would not want to be subject to or participate in a people registry though as it would be a tremendous inconvenience and an invasion of privacy similar to that which long gun owners are subject to now.

I am open for rational debate if you would like to address any points I have made.

[Guest Ol Big Moose]

Guns dont kill people, People kill people!

[Spectre 21]

(I left your name off the quote that I copied from moose in fairness because you look like you deleted your post to maintain your anonymity.)

I did not delete post because I wanted to be anonymous look at the top of his quote my name is there. I deleted it because of moose's response. With idiots like that who instead of having anything important or even the slightest bit decent to say about the gun registry, he simply talks out his rear end and wasn't even worth the time... However you did make some good points Jimithy. Now unlike what moose thinks I am not a liberal, infact I think all parties are useless and you can't win with any of them. I am also neither for nor against the gun registry. All of my guns are registered therefore it doesn't matter to me if it stays or goes. I am not saying it is perfect as it is by any means but it is a start and maybe instead of just scrapping a $2 billion plan and wasting it, maybe tweak it, adjust it, refine it. If all the energy that is being put into stopping it was put into making it better somehow would that not be a better use of the "wasted" money.

"The fact is that even with a registry in place Joseph got his hands on an unregistered gun and used it maliciously" Yes, this is an example where the gun registry actually failed. This is the problem by being preventative. 99% of the time you will not even know the crime could have been committed but wasn't because guns were removed. Unless someone comes out and says they became unstable and its a good thing the police came and removed the guns because they were going to commit a crime. Yes I know criminals don't use registered guns... well the smart ones don't anyways as we saw recently. But thats the thing about criminals, they ALWAYS find a way to circumvent the law. I used to work for a security company and people would always come looking for an unbreakable lock. However there is no such thing, we used to tell them, all locks will do is keep the honest people out. Should we all stop using locks on our doors?(which are also preventative). Obviously not because they theoretically keep many more crimes from happening.

" I will also say that they would have solved it right quick too with out the use of the Long Gun Registry. " - You cannot definitively say this as you don't know for sure, especially since they didnt have a name, people had just seen him around. You are making an asumption based on what the officer said. From what it sounded like to me was the officer was trying to defend their detective skills, so people wouldn't start talking and saying that the police were luckily that the gun was registered or they never would have caught the guy... Which they might not have, look at all the robberies that have happened lately between mac stores and the pharmacies where they have pictures of the people committing and I can't say if they caught some of them or not they for sure have not caught the majority of them.

While it seems I am for this I am really just playing devils advocate as so many people put a negative spin on it i like to look at both sides of the argument.

•The fact that we are required to register and carry proof of our registration certificate in the form of a piece of flimsy paper that can be lost or destroyed accidentally.

Interesting all of my registration cards are made of plastic like the PAL. Although I can see how paper would cost less now that everyone is complaining how much it is. Though there would probably be more outcry if we were to have to pay for these cards also. You can always photocopy the original registration, lamanate it.

•In the event that we wreck or lose our certificate we successfuly become criminals and a reverse onus is placed on us to prove we are innocent while real criminals are innocent until proven guilty.

This is not true, if you happen to wreck or lose it even while you are out hunting we will say and are stopped and your registration is asked for. Unless it was burned or lost you would still have the remains of the paper on you to show. Decent police officers would not confiscate or charge you they could either call in the serial number or require you to bring in proof after the fact that it is registered. Otherwise it is a simple call to the Canada Firearms Office(or whatever they are called) and they mail/email/fax you a replacement.

•Without any charges, trial, or conviction the police have the ability to confiscate my hard earned and rightfully paid for property. Confiscation without any compensation.

While this may or may not be true, I would be interested to find out how many times this has actually happened. I believe the intent of this is for the mentally unstable to not have guns in their possession. Just because you are sane one day doesn't mean you are the next, trama can't make someone instable and a danger to themselves and others. While there were no charges, trial or conviction the officers must have due cause. At which point I am sure if it is a misunderstanding that you can go through a few meetings with the proper authorities to reaquire your firearms. Have you ever heard the saying "crazy people dont know they are crazy". I know, If it is believed that I have become unstable and the police remove my guns I support it 100%. I would prefer have to go through some hassle to get my guns back as long as my family was protected...even if it was from myself.

I say we create a people registry of with a ranking system to determine who is mentally unstable and who is not.Those who are not would not be allowed to possess firearms! Simple enough?

- Is this not something that should be addressed when you get your PAL? When the people trained to administer this test who say you are capable and responsible enough to use firearms should this not be addressed at that time. Maybe psych evaluations should be given at this time also.

In this manner perhaps we could stop the next Joseph Lavoie or Kimveer Gill,(Dawson Colllege Mtl.) and save potential victims in a way that the Long Gun Registry could not.

- This incident could not have been stopped in that manner nor could the gun registry stopped it either. Even if you had a program designed to target the unstable, it is possible to become unstable in time. They could be stable as you or me when they go through the program and still become unstable and create a tragedy such as this. Short of being able to see the future there is no foolproof way to stop every gun crime 100% of the time.

The long gun registry is a preventative tool to keep the honest people honest. If your gun was inproperly stored and was stolen and used in a crime, knowing you would be charged and/or fined for failure to properly store your gun and it being used in a crime, would you report it? My main point is there is no way to track these statistics, there is no way to know how many lives it has saved or how many crimes it has prevented, if any. While it stands now the registry is by no means the answer but it is at least part of the equation.

Thank you for the well thought out response, it is appreciated and i welcome your thoughts as well

[Guest Ol Big Moose]

Ok smart guy maybe you`ll be happy if we have to register all potential weapons. Such as maybe we will have to register our fillet knives,fish hooks or baseball bats, maybe our hockey sticks are next on the list. It`s not the intitial law that is b-s its all the little gliches that come with the law. It has to stop some where or we`re all Fahqed sooner or later.

[naden 136]

I dont have any registration papers that are plastic , mine are all very thin cheap paper. I took photo copies because i knew if i regularily carried them in the field they would be destroyed...which they pretty much are.

Both of you have some pretty good points. I do have to lean towards Jimithy's point of view though. It has run through my mind that it seems like a waste to scrap the registry after this long, but I dont know what could be done to tweek it so that it actually does prevent crime. Sometimes there is just no point kicking a dead horse.

I beleive when the idea of a registry was first proposed it was a knee jerk reaction to prevent gun related crime. Non long gun owners imediately jumped on the band wagon and were all for it. A lot of these people, through no fault of their own, were misinformed. The canadian media and government were both responsible for the misinformation. I remember there being a lot of media confusion between gun control and long gun registration. Everyone thought that gun owners were against gun laws, and not the registry. Many people did not realize that gun control laws and firearms licenseing were already in place and that gun owners were compliant. During this time it seemed that the primary goal of the government was to start a long gun registry and then confiscate firearms, many other countries had already done this. Gun owners were obviously dead against this for fear of losing their right to own long guns.

So here we are years later, and no, there has not been any confiscations, tempers on both sides of the arguement have calmed yet many gun owners are still against the registry. It has been shown that there are many flaws and the registry has cost a lot more than anyone thought. Some of the non gun owners that were previously for the registry are starting to scratch their heads and think "after all this time and money spent, what exactly is the registry doing to prevent crime? Even the government is showing a lack of support by maintaining the amnesty.

I think in the end most people, including myself, are thinking that all of the money put into the registry could have been better spent elsewhere.

Perhaps a syringe registry would be more appropriate!

[Guest Ol Big Moose]

In the end all that 2 BILLION dollars could have been put towards ALOT of other places. I for one am against it and have had my firearms taken from me for something that didnt have anything to do with firearms or killing anyone or even talking about firearms or killing anyone. but maybe i shouldnt respond because im talking out me aarse. Syringe registry hah good one hah not only does a certain company give them to junkies free of charge they hand deliver them to their house!!!

[Spectre 21]

Ok smart guy maybe you`ll be happy if we have to register all potential weapons. Such as maybe we will have to register our fillet knives,fish hooks or baseball bats, maybe our hockey sticks are next on the list.

In the end all that 2 BILLION dollars could have been put towards ALOT of other places. I for one am against it and have had my firearms taken from me for something that didnt have anything to do with firearms or killing anyone or even talking about firearms or killing anyone. but maybe i shouldnt respond because im talking out me aarse. Syringe registry hah good one hah not only does a certain company give them to junkies free of charge they hand deliver them to their house!!!

How many times do I have to say it, I don't care either way keep the registry, scrap it, its all the same to me. Sure I would register all the rest of that stuff too if its a law. It took all of 10 minutes to register my guns however long ago it was, didn't cost me anything extra(taxes, woulda paid those anyways ) and I really haven't had to think about it since.

While I don't know the situation I can see why you are biased towards the registry, I would be too in that situation.

[Guest Jimithy]

Spectre, you have suggested that we tweak the Long Gun Registry(LGR) to refine it, I assume to make it better at targeting criminals.

I feel that there is no way to make the LGR target criminals. It only serves to criminalize law abiding Canadians.

The LGR is arguably not preventative 99% of the time as you have stated. There are no statistics to prove this. I could argue that the Canadian firearms safety course, human decency and rational minds are the preventative measures that work to stop violent acts. That’s the problem with something that works, you can’t see how many near misses there were.

You are right that criminals do not pay attention to the law. I can see your point that a lock only stops honest people, but really that’s a tongue in cheek comment. Obviously locks also keep bad guys out or at least make it harder to break in. The LGR does not. It does not stop criminals or make it harder for criminals to do anything. It only criminalizes law abiding citizens and places checks on people that likely do not need to be watched. I should add that yes the LGR provides evidence to the police of every firearm registered by an individual and in the event that they have a mental breakdown, it could be used to ensure all of those registered firearms are removed. If the individual really wants to keep or get firearms that are unregistered they can, just as Joseph from the previous example did. For this reason it cannot be logically argued that the LGR works.

For you to argue that I can’t make assumptions on whether the police would have caught the guy or not is hypocritical. You are making assumptions that without the LGR they would not have been able to and that with it their work was done for them. In this case it was a tool that helped, but neither of us can accurately argue how this would have played out without the LGR.

The licensing system (PAL) gives the police the ability to remove your firearms in the event that they believe you could harm your self or others. In most cases the law abiding citizen would voluntarily forfeit their firearms upon request by the police. It’s the criminals who would not, the same criminals who pay no attention to the LGR.

You are correct in that people’s mental fitness should be addressed at the PAL stage of firearms licensing. And in fact this is where it occurs! All people who want a firearms license need to answer questions about their mental stability. Further, if their spouse feels uncomfortable about him or her owning firearms, the spouse has the opportunity to disallow it. The LGR does not affect this.

Spectre wrote, “Short of being able to see the future there is no foolproof way to stop every gun crime 100% of the time.” I agree but I would go a step further to say there is no foolproof way to stop any crime all the time. The LGR certainly is not an answer. As I have indicated, I do not believe that the LGR is even part of the solution. It has extremely little benefit and extremely large cost while targeting the wrong people.

If we want to curb gun violence or crime, I say greatly increase the mandatory minimums sentences for violent crimes involving firearms, and increase funding and spending on police and community services designed to help those people who are either mentally unstable or feel the need to turn to a life of crime. Fix the problem at the root.

[gsambray 172]

I can see the gun registry for restricted firearms. as I do posses both restricted and non restricted. At the least make the cards more durable. I work with a guy who got his card damaged out hunting and on his way home was stopped and had his rifle takin by the opp. he was told when he can prove it was registered by bringing in a new card he would get it back, but by the time it took the government to issue him a new card they already had it destroyed. it took more than 6 weeks for a new card to come in the mail and apparently after 30 days they dispose of any firearms. maybe it was a mistake on the cops behalf as we all are humans and make mistakes but he is know out over $1500 to replace what he had lost. and why dont the game wardens want to see them when they stop you. multiple times i have been stopped by a c.o. and when i ask if they want to see my cards they say no. I even had one tell me its a waste of paper. even though my opinion to this registry means less than the pile of dog crap that i stepped on leaving my house the other day its something that we honest gun owners will have to put up with. all because of a few morons who decide to use a tool to commit a crime. but there is nothing we can do about it. hell i am sure everyone agrees that the government owns us especially since the day they started taxing toilet paper. i guess you can say that i am just ranting and raving about this and i am sure there will be a lot of negative comments towards me but as for know i still have the right to speak my mind for know anyways untill thats takin away too. here is an idea why not make me register my bow as well. its more dangerous than any gun i own. it will even go through a kevlar vest(not that i am planning on anything) hopefully someone can see my point and for those who disagree, SUCK IT UP BUTTERCUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Spectre 21]

and why dont the game wardens want to see them when they stop you. multiple times i have been stopped by a c.o. and when i ask if they want to see my cards they say no.

As far as I know c.o.'s can't check your PAL or Registration, only the OPP can do that.

[Buck 120 32]

CO's can check your PAL and registration.