Equal Access to Crown Land

[beercan 4]

MNR Restore Equal Public Access to Crown Land

By Tym Barker (Contact)

To be delivered to: Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources, Minister of Natural Resources (Michael Gravelle)

That the honourable Minister of Natural Resources, Michael Gravelle, introduce legislation that; requires the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources to immediately restore equal public access to all Crown Land and Lakes in Ontario that have been previously restricted from access by vehicular traffic, by removing any and all barriers, berms, etc., and by removing any and all signs which currently restrict access in any way to the public on all Crown Land and Lakes in Ontario, and that the MNR be required to enact and maintain this same policy of equal access for all people, regardless of race, religion, or affiliation, for all existing and new public roads built on Crown Land in Ontario.

Introduce legislation requiring the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources (MNR) to immediately restore equal public access to all Crown Land and Lakes in Ontario. Copy and paste the link for more information
/>http://signon.org/sign/mnr-restore-equal-public?source=s.em.cp&r_by=1837205

[brookiebuster 117]

Good to see!

[Guest ratherfishthanwork]

This is from a petition website and not anything official. I believe there are serious problems such as Wawa where access restrictions appear to run rampant. But where there is a lake that has remote tourism camps and road access does not exist and new cutting takes place I do support the restricting of access to the lake. ATV's have change the way people access Crown Land and I cannot understand why folks do not support protecting the outfitters livelihood. From what I understand you can still access these lakes by traditional methods.

[beercan 4]

This is from a petition website and not anything official. I believe there are serious problems such as Wawa where access restrictions appear to run rampant. But where there is a lake that has remote tourism camps and road access does not exist and new cutting takes place I do support the restricting of access to the lake. ATV's have change the way people access Crown Land and I cannot understand why folks do not support protecting the outfitters livelihood. From what I understand you can still access these lakes by traditional methods.

[beercan 4]

The poll was created by a board member of Ontora

ontora.ca

The website has more information on the group.

[uncle 19]

ATV's have change the way people access Crown Land and I cannot understand why folks do not support protecting the outfitters livelihood. From what I understand you can still access these lakes by traditional methods.

No-one is trying to take away the outfitter's livelihood. They may want to change the way they access their camps but the country is changing and time should not stand still for a select few camp owners. At one time Ontario was all wilderness but now there are condos and highrises where traplines were the norm. If they insist on having a fly-in resort for their livelihood they will have to move with the times. There are still thousands of square miles of Ontario without road access.

[arvey 154]

i think wind farms like the one up escape lake road could cause problems. if more of these are put up in areas like this one, it means less access to hunting fishing areas.

arvey

[Mr. Canoehead 69]

This is from a petition website and not anything official. I believe there are serious problems such as Wawa where access restrictions appear to run rampant. But where there is a lake that has remote tourism camps and road access does not exist and new cutting takes place I do support the restricting of access to the lake. ATV's have change the way people access Crown Land and I cannot understand why folks do not support protecting the outfitters livelihood. From what I understand you can still access these lakes by traditional methods.

If I own a business and someone across the street starts giving my product away for free and starts to impact my business, will the MNR restrict access to the guy across the street to help keep me afloat? Because that's basically the same thing. It's time to relocate the business if it's really that bad. I mean the outfitter profits from public funded MNR blocking access and meanwhile what are they giving back to the rest of us in return? Nothing. Why should I care about the outfitters? And why can't they move lakes since they do have airplanes. Me I just got a 4x4 and a boat petition signed.

[Gone8to1248 158]

A nice look at the little picture! How about the bigger peicture thogh. Blocking access on some of the roads also takes away our hunting on Crown Land in many areas as well as fishing lakes that DON"T have tourist camps on them. As an example I used to fly into Kershaw lake for my trips and it did have a camp on it, but you could also access Hawn Lake,Savage lake,Ruth Lake, 2 Lakes behind the camp on Kershaw,Guenter Lake,Quinlan Lake and a few more. By blocking access to the road the outfitters now have control over these lakes as well without any additional cost to them and if nobody portages into them while staying at the outfitters camp then they are just going to waste. Also they aren't used in the winter time by the outfitters so why can't they be ice fished by the canadians as most of the lakes I mentionned have Lake Trout in them in good numbers. While I used these camps during moose hunting I did see a lot of local hunters come up the road and hunt the area. Though at times it was crowded up there with people most were using ATV's and were well away from us and they were hunting the timbered out areas. We had everything east of the lake to hunt and when you are on a fly in trip and have to carry everything in and out you aren't going to be straying to far from the lake so who cares that other people are up there. When I first statted doing fly in trips to Kershaw it cost $335 per person for a week, when I quit doing it the cost was about $1100per person! Before anyone starts whining about rising cost just let me say this we had the same leaky crappy boats, the same basic cabin, and was flying in on the same planes. I know Insurance and fuel cost have gone up, but nothing like that. As a pilot who rents planes I'm well aware of the cost increases in flying but it's nothing like that. The cost increase was mostly greed and the customers are mostly Americans. How many of these outfiters are owned now by American who tend to only service the Wealthy Americans? The need for an American to hunt with a guide to me is nothing more than greed in my thoughts as I have hunted most of my life and really don't need someone to hold my hand. In one of the articles I read they said it was the guides job to se that the rules are followed, what a joke that is! If I don't know the rules and get busted for breaking them then I should loose my right to hunt and pay a heavy fine for being stupid. These are just my own personal thoughts on the subject and anyone who knows me up there knows I have said this many times over the years. That the Canadians are getting screwed in the matter, and hope they do pass you some new laws letting you access more areas.

Bernie

[Chuck 19]

Totally agree with Bernie on his thoughts Thing is I"m into mining exploration

Woodland companies come in take the wood and when they leave the MNR makes them take out bridges and destroy the roads making them impassible even for me and others who make a living out of what we do

A good example would be the Uneven lake area which has great potential for exploration but unless you fly in forget about it

Outfitters don"t even want other planes on their so called lakes

Another example would be Bemar Lake where the outfitter wanted to get the no vechicle access beyond this point sign moved another mile back from the little creek that flows into it We put together a petition and had a couple thousand signatures held meetings and invited the MNR to attend They classified us as a lynch mob and declined our invitation

The sign was never moved I guess we proved our point My 2 cents

[Guest JeffB]

Government interference makes most, if not all things worse. Trying to protect outfitters at the expense of the public is in no way a good thing.

The fact that the MNR is behind this is a terrible sign of things to come from them. They need to stick to their original job as conservation officers, not outfitter conservationists.

[uncle 19]

Government interference makes most, if not all things worse. Trying to protect outfitters at the expense of the public is in no way a good thing.

The fact that the MNR is behind this is a terrible sign of things to come from them. They need to stick to their original job as conservation officers, not outfitter conservationists.

Don't blame the CO's. It's NOTO lobbying politicians, plying them with trips and Xmas gifts that's creating all the problems.

[Guest JeffB]

Don't blame the CO's. It's NOTO lobbying politicians, plying them with trips and Xmas gifts that's creating all the problems.

Not blaming the COs, theyre just foot soldiers. Thats what happens when any ministry gets too big for its britches. They lose sight of what they originally intended to do and start to exist for their own benefits.

and in this case its the benefit of the outfitters... which in turn benefits them.

[Guest Smack Um]

Government interference makes most, if not all things worse. Trying to protect outfitters at the expense of the public is in no way a good thing.

The fact that the MNR is behind this is a terrible sign of things to come from them. They need to stick to their original job as conservation officers, not outfitter conservationists.

I agree when I first started going to the Armstrong Area there was no Wabakimi Park and we drove or flew pretty much where we pleased then along came this Yankee Draft Dodger Bruce Hyers.

At first this park was started out small and then it grew not twice but three times this area used to provide many people with good paying jobs in the forestry industry now it provides only a handfull of minimun wage seasonal jobs to a few.

I think it is high time we take take back what is ours Canada!

Pat

[arvey 154]

outfitters have had the mnr in their hip pocket for a good many years. only now has it become more prevelent. imagine buy or build a resort and get the land around it for free. i know the focus of this issue is on the outfitters, but to me crown land access means all crown land and not just about the outfitters.

as usual the almighty dollar speaks louder than our concerns.

arvey

[Guest Munshaw]

I do agree that logging companies should have to take their bridges and block access to roads they cut in. Their job is not to increase access to lakes. They are two separate things.

I also agree that we should be allowed to use snowmobiles and quads to get in to outfitter lakes. I just don't feel that the logging companies should be assisting us in it. If a guy wants to do the work - go ahead. But don't expect easy access. That's just my opinion.

[Buck 120 32]

I also agree we should be able to have access to outfitter lakes by snowmobile, quad and walking. Why are there signs within kms of the lakes banning access. If I bust my hump to carry a boat and outboard motor into a lake, then hats off to me and I should get to fish it! Why is it that the rich float plane owners can access any lake they want including outfitter lakes and the rest of us cannot. In my opinion it creates a two tier system one for the wealthy, while the rest of us guys and gals have to work our asses off to get into other "non-accessible" or difficult lakes.

If the lake is good enough to fish and hold enough population, then the rest of us tax paying citizens should have access to the land.

If what the tourists want is untouched wilderness, then keep flying north, the outfitter tourist tax dollars will still stay in Ontario, just further north.

[naden 136]

How about Legris lake, it is classed as having tourism potential yet there is no resort on the lake. It is ok to access it from the north side by quad, truck, snowmachine, but on the south side there is a no motorized vehicle sign. Same goes for arrow lake at the addie lake end. That lake has private drive to cabins, a resort, a provincial park and a public boat launch.....no motorized access allowed from the clear cut though, how rediculous is that!!

[uncle 19]

How about Legris lake, it is classed as having tourism potential yet there is no resort on the lake. It is ok to access it from the north side by quad, truck, snowmachine, but on the south side there is a no motorized vehicle sign. Same goes for arrow lake at the addie lake end. That lake has private drive to cabins, a resort, a provincial park and a public boat launch.....no motorized access allowed from the clear cut though, how rediculous is that!!

About 30 years ago I was accused of lowering stumps in a cutover to gain access to a lake. I really had the feeling I was going to jail as they were very serious about it, like I had killed someone or something. Luckily they couldn't prove it was me because there were other tire tracks than mine there. I shudder to think what they would do to you today.

[66blackhawk 3]

Athelstaine Lake-To camp on this lake i have to buy a permit from wagner forest products-at D&R.The M&R sent me a map describing where i cant camp without a permit,including islands-they also own the lake bed.Usually wood harvesting does not take place right up to shorelines,or islands,right??.I really dont understand how our govt.can agree to this,and have voiced my opinions with them-all i got back was the map.Thinking about heading up there and cutting some new campsites out of the bush,so i can camp & fish on a beautiful lake without being gouged by a forest company or being sold out by our govt.ASSININE.The areas illustrated in orange are owned by Wagner while the areas in tan are Crown Land.doc

[Guest mooseman]

Just my two cents worth, I think "ratherfishthenwork" is the only one on here with any commons sense. Why would people think it's there God given right to fish and hunt where ever they want regardless of what effect it has on other resource users. Outfitters invest a hundred thousand or more into each camp and have been told by the MNR that in return for the investment their business interests would be protected. Each Outfitter puts hundreds of thousands of dollars into the local economy through jobs a purchases from local business's. The only purpose for the roads is to harvest the wood which also puts huge money into the economy, so the roads should be destroyed after there is no long a requirement for logging access.

As far as the comments about the "rich plane owners" I shake my head. Each and every one of us can make the choice to get a pilot licence and buy a plane so you can access any lake you want. I choose to drive an older vehicle and have a modest house so I CAN afford to own and fly a plane. By the way, a plane is about the same cost as that photo I see of a new ford pickup and a nice boat behind it. So quit whinning about what other people have and go out and work for it yourself.

Another point I would like to make is the comment about the greedy Outfitters jacking up the cost of trips from $335 to $1100 and the increase in cost just couldn't possibly that high, BS it is that high. The cost of a Beaver plane went from $75k in the mid 80's to over $400K in mid 2000's. The price of fuel went from 30 cents a litre to 1.80 a litre this year, the cost of the LUP's for the outpost went up 700% That is only a few examples of the way the costs have gone up.

Every outpost camp in NW Ontario is for sale so if you think the Outfitters are making such a killing then go out and mortgage your house and buy a few outpost camps at about $150k each. Most of the fly- in Outpost camps in NW Ont are locally owned family run businesses, not a bunch of rich Americans.

The MNR protects the Outfitters because of the huge amount of money tourism brings into the economy. The government protects alot of industries and jobs though tariffs and taxes, so I'm sure everybody is fine with the government protecting their jobs. Who do you think owns the paper mills in the NW Ontario, it's American companies but they create hundreds of jobs and business's. Like it or not life is full of rules and barriers so enjoy the lakes you can access and live and let live. Just be thankful that you can afford a boat and motor, many can't so maybe the government should give people free pickups, boats and motors so we don't have a two tier system!!

[crazyctr 227]

i think wind farms like the one up escape lake road could cause problems. if more of these are put up in areas like this one, it means less access to hunting fishing areas.

arvey

this is to let you know that there is no restictions to fishing up in the wind farm you can fish any lake you please as for hunting the area is closed for the protection of the workers which is comon sense other then that the hunting was great up there in the open areas was the only place around here that actually had moose in it

[crazyctr 227]

Just my two cents worth, I think "ratherfishthenwork" is the only one on here with any commons sense. Why would people think it's there God given right to fish and hunt where ever they want regardless of what effect it has on other resource users. Outfitters invest a hundred thousand or more into each camp and have been told by the MNR that in return for the investment their business interests would be protected. Each Outfitter puts hundreds of thousands of dollars into the local economy through jobs a purchases from local business's. The only purpose for the roads is to harvest the wood which also puts huge money into the economy, so the roads should be destroyed after there is no long a requirement for logging access.

As far as the comments about the "rich plane owners" I shake my head. Each and every one of us can make the choice to get a pilot licence and buy a plane so you can access any lake you want. I choose to drive an older vehicle and have a modest house so I CAN afford to own and fly a plane. By the way, a plane is about the same cost as that photo I see of a new ford pickup and a nice boat behind it. So quit whinning about what other people have and go out and work for it yourself.

Another point I would like to make is the comment about the greedy Outfitters jacking up the cost of trips from $335 to $1100 and the increase in cost just couldn't possibly that high, BS it is that high. The cost of a Beaver plane went from $75k in the mid 80's to over $400K in mid 2000's. The price of fuel went from 30 cents a litre to 1.80 a litre this year, the cost of the LUP's for the outpost went up 700% That is only a few examples of the way the costs have gone up.

Every outpost camp in NW Ontario is for sale so if you think the Outfitters are making such a killing then go out and mortgage your house and buy a few outpost camps at about $150k each. Most of the fly- in Outpost camps in NW Ont are locally owned family run businesses, not a bunch of rich Americans.

The MNR protects the Outfitters because of the huge amount of money tourism brings into the economy. The government protects alot of industries and jobs though tariffs and taxes, so I'm sure everybody is fine with the government protecting their jobs. Who do you think owns the paper mills in the NW Ontario, it's American companies but they create hundreds of jobs and business's. Like it or not life is full of rules and barriers so enjoy the lakes you can access and live and let live. Just be thankful that you can afford a boat and motor, many can't so maybe the government should give people free pickups, boats and motors so we don't have a two tier system!!

it is a well known fact that 90 percent of all outfitter camps are american owned in ontario they come up here rape the lakes and take all the money back to the states they bring all their groceries in from the states as well as all the fuel they use you have ur opinion now you have mine

[Guest souonter]

Just my two cents worth, I think "ratherfishthenwork" is the only one on here with any commons sense. Why would people think it's there God given right to fish and hunt where ever they want regardless of what effect it has on other resource users. Outfitters invest a hundred thousand or more into each camp and have been told by the MNR that in return for the investment their business interests would be protected. Each Outfitter puts hundreds of thousands of dollars into the local economy through jobs a purchases from local business's. The only purpose for the roads is to harvest the wood which also puts huge money into the economy, so the roads should be destroyed after there is no long a requirement for logging access.

As far as the comments about the "rich plane owners" I shake my head. Each and every one of us can make the choice to get a pilot licence and buy a plane so you can access any lake you want. I choose to drive an older vehicle and have a modest house so I CAN afford to own and fly a plane. By the way, a plane is about the same cost as that photo I see of a new ford pickup and a nice boat behind it. So quit whinning about what other people have and go out and work for it yourself.

Another point I would like to make is the comment about the greedy Outfitters jacking up the cost of trips from $335 to $1100 and the increase in cost just couldn't possibly that high, BS it is that high. The cost of a Beaver plane went from $75k in the mid 80's to over $400K in mid 2000's. The price of fuel went from 30 cents a litre to 1.80 a litre this year, the cost of the LUP's for the outpost went up 700% That is only a few examples of the way the costs have gone up.

Every outpost camp in NW Ontario is for sale so if you think the Outfitters are making such a killing then go out and mortgage your house and buy a few outpost camps at about $150k each. Most of the fly- in Outpost camps in NW Ont are locally owned family run businesses, not a bunch of rich Americans.

The MNR protects the Outfitters because of the huge amount of money tourism brings into the economy. The government protects alot of industries and jobs though tariffs and taxes, so I'm sure everybody is fine with the government protecting their jobs. Who do you think owns the paper mills in the NW Ontario, it's American companies but they create hundreds of jobs and business's. Like it or not life is full of rules and barriers so enjoy the lakes you can access and live and let live. Just be thankful that you can afford a boat and motor, many can't so maybe the government should give people free pickups, boats and motors so we don't have a two tier system!!

Your remarks were a personal attack and not allowed on here.......................Bernie

Edited January 3, 2012 by souonter
personal attacks aren't allowed on this site

[Guest mooseman]

HI again, I really think that your numbers may be more myth then fact, at least when we are talking about the fly in camps. Just look at the Canadian owned operators in the area, Dryden,-Wilderness Air, Ignace Outposts, Atikokan- Kashabowie Outposts, Armstrong- Armstrong Outposts, Due North Outposts, Mattice Lake Outfitters, Huron Air and outposts, Okogi Frontier, Thunder Bay- Thousand Lakes Outposts, Northern Frontier Outposts, Fort Frances- Northwest Outposts, Pickle Lake- North of 51 outposts, Pickle Lake Outposts, Nakina Outposts, Red Lake- Greens Outpost, Chimo lodge, Showalters fly in, Viking Outposts, Kay Outposts, Sioux Lookout- Knobby's fly in, Slate Falls Outposts, Red Pine Outposts. And I'm sure I missed a bunch too, very few are American owed in this area. I'd be more then happy to see your list of American owed fly in operators. And the comment about taking the all the money back to the States, where does all the money from the paper mills go, or the mining companies?

As for as the last comment goes, you need to try to act like an adult.