Fishing, Is it a right or a privilege? Let us discuss.

[Some Old Guy 968]

I think it's a privilege. Here's why.

It's like a driver's licence. It can be taken away and you can't drive anymore. Same with a fishing licence.

Even if you murder someone some of your rights are maintained. They can't take a right away no matter what you do.

What do you think?

Roger

[Lyle Reiner 174]

Roger, do you want a bigger paddle? God your stirring the pot lol

[eddylives 99]

Well lets see......It could be said that it's any residents right to fish/hunt as long as they adhere to the set rules and regulations.

Now that being said I see no problem with removing the privliege of exercising your right to fish if you do not conduct yourself accordingly......lol

[McGinnis_Fishing 49]

I feel its a right as long as your folowing all rules and regs. Thats how our ancesstors provided for themselves so it should be a right.

[pastor norm 125]

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms has a number of legal obligations and entitlements

that we hold dear as a society.

Fishing is not one of those that are named.

HOWEVER..... If we all joined the first "Church of the Fisherman", we could make a very good case that

our fishing would be protected as a fundamental Canadian freedom of conscience and religion.

Our first bingo will beheld next Thursday.

[speckmaster 114]

Mature adults don't need a license. Over 65 I think.

[eddylives 99]

Or children , young adults under the age of 18

[levi64 72]

I think it's a privilege. Here's why.

It's like a driver's licence. It can be taken away and you can't drive anymore. Same with a fishing licence.

Even if you murder someone some of your rights are maintained. They can't take a right away no matter what you do.

What do you think?

Roger

You must be padding your resume for a job with the National INquirer

[pastor norm 125]

Roger.... Rights can be forfeit in case we refuse to meet our obligations under the law.

Remember that a charter right is both an entitlement and a duty.

As you pointed out, in the case of a murder conviction, fundamental rights can be stripped from

citizen so long as its done according to a legally prescibed due process.

What about these rich Canadians hiding big money in off-shore accounts and shell companies?

Like to see some of their rights and "privileges" get stripped --- according to due process, of course.

[Guest FreshwaterFisherman]

Fishing to me is something I love. I treat it as a privilege, why you ask? There are a ton of people who can't fish, either because of a disability, wheelchair, lack of funds, improper equipment or lack knowledge. A right is something you are born with, fishing, legally, ethically, takes time to learn. It takes effort, concentration, and common sense. To think that there are a million things that can prevent me from fishing, ie broken arm, being sick, no money, makes me think about how privileged I am. The minute people look at something as a right they get defensive. They push boundaries. We are all privileged to live in such an amazing area, and we are privileged to be able to fish for so many species, with great success right out of back door. I feel if I view fishing as a privilege, something I can have taken away from me, I will have more respect for it. Sure it may be a right, but I can't help but think of what an amazing privilege it really is. For us in NWO anyway.

[Guest cmcrawfo]

Rights vs privileges have been debated since there where philosophers….this is going to be a good thread.

Rights are generally seen as something you are born with and you will die with, they cannot be taken away. To this extent, even civil rights are truly defined as privileges. When we consider what ‘our rights’ are, we often consider rights to be something that are only possessed by humans (Depending on your personal belief systems) but this could also be debated. There a few things that are true rights…the right to exists perhaps….and even that right can be withdrawn.

Is fishing a right? It can be argued that it is, fishing for sustenance and harvesting the land have been essential elements of life (both human and non human) since the dawn of time. Is it my right to fish in Ontario? I don’t think so, I don’t require the right to fish to survive and not being able to do so would have a negligible impact on my wellbeing. My family emigrated from another country (as have most of ours) so these are not my ancestral or territorial lands. We live within, and participate in a system where the government takes responsibility for protecting rights and privileges for the greater good.

We all have a responsibility to be good stewards of the environment, as part of this social responsibility, we accept catch limits and license requirements. If we fail to adhere these, our ability to fish can be limited by government. Even ancestral harvesting rights, possessed by first nations groups, should be seen as privileges, as poor internal management can put species and communities at risk. While fishing is an essential part of life and heritage, if the actions can negatively impact the right (to life) of others, then they are likely privileges.

Do fish populations and other forms of wildlife..or even forests.. have rights? Perhaps they do.

[Guest FreshwaterFisherman]

Good post cmcraw.

[RickS 19]

What a great topic! I'm from the US and we have some states that have passed ballot initiatives or enacted legislation that guarantee a "right" to hunt and fish. This arose over fears that groups like PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) would eventually succeed in shutting down hunting and fishing programs through lawsuits against the various fish and wildlife management agencies (our equivalents of OMNR). So to some extent, one can assert that it is a "right" in certain places in the US.

That said, I subscribe much more to the school that regards it as a privilege even though the State must exercise "due process" in curtailing my exercise of the privilege. That "due process" most often takes the form of limiting the when and where I can hunt or fish by enacting regulations like open seasons, bag limits, and tackle restrictions. But for those who don't like to follow the rules, due process can also mean stripping them of the privilege entirely.

sorry about the double-post-- my mouse sticks and sent this twice.

[pastor norm 125]

cmcrawfo... I disagree. I think? Rights can be taken away. Or did you mean that some people see rights as "inalienable" and can't ever be taken away? According to our Charter you have the right to move wherever you want and associate with whomever you want, but if you steal another person's property, you get these rights stripped from you temporarily for breaking the law. I think we have to remember the context -- every right depends on a society that defines such rights and protects them. When a society begins to think of these freedoms and rights as "priviledges", we start getting into trouble. So I don't think of driving as a priviledge -- it's a right in Ontario, subject to Ontario regulations and my commitment to abide by the law that goes with my driving entitlements.

When it comes to fishing, I think we residents have a "right" in Ontario to buy a fishing license at a resident's fee and fish according to Ontario laws. We can't be barred from getting a license because of our age (elderly and children can excercise the right for free here), ethnicity, political ideology, religious beliefs, sexual preferences, etc. The only things which could interfere with this right are things like property rights, official resource management (health of fish stocks), treaty rights, and a person's neglect of duty in excercising fishing rights. The government would have to demonstrate that the various fish stocks in the province are under tremendous stress and in peril of their existence before our right to fish would be curtailed.

PETA type groups and lobbyists can't dictate this policy. But if the greater majority of our fellow citizens decide that too many people who fish abuse their rights and harm the resource we all share, it's possible for this "right" to be taken away. That's why all fishermen need to realize we must be ambassadors for the sport and the greatest advocates for the natural resources all Ontarians share. cmcrawfo's reminder of "responsible stewardship" of Ontario resources is bang on

[Guest cmcrawfo]

And this probably the reason that rights v privilege has been debated for centuries.

The most classic definition of a right is something that is “god given”, in that it cannot be taken away. The notion that right can be given or taken away makes man made rights essentially privileges, by definition.

We do have human rights in Canada and a charter of rights and freedoms, but if these rights are only granted to individuals living within the defined boundaries of our country and can be granted or retracted by the will of man (or government) are they really rights? If these are true rights, should they not be universal? …. Arguably, the only universal right may be death … in which case, fighting for our rights may be counter productive.

However, This may be a more spiritually based argument, as the term “rights” has a clear definition from privilege in a legal context.The rights bestowed upon us by our government are the foundation and underpinning of our society, they essentially provide a moral and social code for us to follow. So I do believe that ‘rights’ exist and are important …. I just enjoy the more meta perspective of rights vs privilege.

I would still argue that something like a fishing license, or a driver’s license is not a right, but a privilege. In that you must apply and pay for the license, you are not guaranteed the license, and those who do not have appropriate identification or supporting documents may be denied these license. Rights (as defined by our charter) are free and applicable to every one (in Canada). I imagine if we had to apply for a “freedom of conscience and religion license”!, non residence would be subjected to a different standard, and it could be revoked if we didn’t follow the rules?

…that being said, in some cites (Montreal) you essentially have to apply for a permit to exercise your freedom to peacefully assemble… so this gives little support to that argument...And not all of our charter rights are guaranteed, in that the charter “guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law” .... (so ...I guess your right?)

[pastor norm 125]

To me, a privilege is a "special right" granted to someome by virtue of their rank or unique birthrite or status. A privilege is by nature "exclusive" in that it seeks a special benefit according to rules unique to that group while denying the entitlements to those outside their group. The French Revolution was all about getting rid of privileges created by having different laws for different classes -- the nobility, the clergy, Maple Fans, etc. To this day we speak of the "privileged classes".

I just want to stress that rights are not "free". Every right has obligations attached to it, even if you don't pay for a licence or show a card. Society is obligated to respect and encourage the exercise of basic human rights and every right must be balanced by the rights of others. Sometimes it's just commonsense to make this work. I tend to stay out of the bush in the hunting season because I don't want to interfere with the rights of others to chase moose -- even though it's my right to trample around the best hunting spots and make noise if I want. Other times these competing rights get sorted out in our highest courts, such as we saw with the Supreme Court judgement for the Manitoba Metis. Rights and freedoms are not the enemy of good laws and good government but belong together.

If you insist that death is the ultimate right... I would add to this one: taxes.

[uncle 19]

Most rights can be given up voluntarily i.e. fishing, hunting, voting. It would be pretty hard though not impossible to live tax free but that death one sort of has us by the short and curlies.

[McGinnis_Fishing 49]

Fishing to me is something I love. I treat it as a privilege, why you ask? There are a ton of people who can't fish, either because of a disability, wheelchair, lack of funds, improper equipment or lack knowledge. A right is something you are born with, fishing, legally, ethically, takes time to learn. It takes effort, concentration, and common sense. To think that there are a million things that can prevent me from fishing, ie broken arm, being sick, no money, makes me think about how privileged I am. The minute people look at something as a right they get defensive. They push boundaries. We are all privileged to live in such an amazing area, and we are privileged to be able to fish for so many species, with great success right out of back door. I feel if I view fishing as a privilege, something I can have taken away from me, I will have more respect for it. Sure it may be a right, but I can't help but think of what an amazing privilege it really is. For us in NWO anyway.

Well said! 100% agree

[Gone8to1248 158]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," - U.S. Declaration of Independence.

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." - Amendment IX

[spindilla1 42]

In Russia you need a certain amount of community service hours before you can fish, personally I feel if you take from the environment you should give back in some way possible. Having said this I think we are all privileged by being able to fish just by aiding the government economically. (Buying licenses) I don't know if things have changed in Russia since I've been but I like the way they do things, keeping the environment self sustaining by having people give back before they take.

[Guest FreshwaterFisherman]

In Soviet Russia, car drive you!

Haha, sorry.

[AB 98]

Check out the link below.

http://www.laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/F-14/page-4.html#h-7

iceman

[Monks 164]

AND for our next riveting post lets discuss religion and its role in fishing!!!! Yeesh, any topic that involves rights, privledge, religion, and the such is a never ending game of circle. Really?

I say for a more exciting topic we ring up the old "Steelhead" thing again as spring is approaching and my smoker does love a good chrome steelhead!!!! LOL.

Sorry could not resist, but with the loss of a good angler and friend, perhaps we can have some more positive oriented, drama negative posts for a bit.

Just a thought...

Cheers Monks

[pastor norm 125]

what's negative about it? where's the drama? Roger asked the question...

don't want to follow this thread then pick the one that is about steelhead in the smoker

and ignore this one.. .

I figure it's pretty plucky of you to use your own grief to knock down your fellow anglers.

As I've already expressed .. my condolences to you...

[pastor norm 125]

Iceman -- what part of the link most interests you?