RRIB 2nd Annual Salmon Derby

[Guest KypeRipper]

There are only 20 spots left

Saturday September 12, 2009

GRAND PRIZE - - HEAVIEST SALMON

$5000.00

2nd PRIZE - - $ 1000.00

All other prizes Via luck of the draw

$100.00 per team - 2 man boat

First 70 PAID teams will be entered

Call 887-2510 for more information

after 4 pm Contact 887-0964

[jiggin rap 4]

There are only 20 spots left

Saturday September 12, 2009

GRAND PRIZE - - HEAVIEST SALMON

$5000.00

2nd PRIZE - - $ 1000.00

All other prizes Via luck of the draw

$100.00 per team - 2 man boat

First 70 PAID teams will be entered

Call 887-2510 for more information

after 4 pm Contact 887-0964

Do these derbies require some type of approval from the MNR? I got word of another derby on this river scheduled for this fall.

Something tells me that in ten years, everyones going to be scratching there heads wondering what happened to all the salmon???

Aaaaa..welllll like every other fishery collapse, its more fun to pick up the pieces after the fact.

Rap

[Guest dano]

Ten years if we're lucky. The size and numbers of salmon that i have caught and seen others catch are way down compared to even just a few years ago both in the lake and river. I wonder if these derbies make a donation of some sort of conservation project to help the river instead of just using and abusing it.

[canadianyanke 7]

drive up the nipigon river and look at the banks and tell me theres not many salmon reproducing. All you see is 3 inch salmon jumping steady. When you see brook trout and salmon "sharing" redds theres a problem.

[GC 54 31]

Understand that these salmon that migrate up the Nipigon to spawn all die after their spawning ritual, however, increased pressure does increase the number of fish caught that never do get their chance to spawn. I don't think that the numbers of fish caught in the river are great compared to what actually migrate up the river. I think we would need some scientific data to prove that there is damage being done to the fishery by the river anglers or even derbies before we can say anything. And besides, I don't think the salmon in Superior are or ever have been on any priority list of the MNR. The efforts of the salmon association contributes to a put and take fishery, once the fish are large enough to be considered food fare. Lots of immature fish are caught in the lake and kept. So keeping an immature smaller salmon for the bbq is not helping the cause either. But you will never change that. The mature ones that do get up into the river are obviously the lucky ones that never got caught in the lake. Is there enough scientific data to even suggest that this is a self sustainable fishery without the efforts of the salmon association? I know there has been some data collected from this past weekend's salmon derby. The clipping process, that has being done prior to the time of stocking for the past few years, will continue to help to provide the data needed to determine this.

Here is Peter Addison's response, thanks Peter!

Hi George;

I saw your message on the board and wanted to pass on a little bit of information about naturalization of Chinooks.

In the past 5-7 year the scientific community has undertook studies that have shown that 85+ % of Chinooks in Lake Huron are wild. This was a real eye opener for those that thought stocking programs around the lake were supporting its populations. To do this research all the fish going into Lake Huron were marked with fin clips or tetracycline.

The TB salmon association has clipped all of their stocked Chinook salmon in 2007, 2008 and 2009 so we should be able to get a handle of what percentage of fish in Thunder Bay are stocked. Of ~120 Chinooks we sampled at this past weekend's derby 3 were clipped.

If you have any more questions about the topic give Steve Bobrowicz or myself a shout.

Peter Addison

Upper Great Lakes Management Unit

OMNR

475 1456

[Guest terminal tackle]

GC............ very well put, i like it .

[Guest walleyman]

Where is this derby taking place, is it on a river or on the big lake????,,, and very well put gc 54

[seppi 19]

That GC 54 is getting wiser in his old age,and yes the MNR has no interest in protecting the salmon ,as Canadian Yankee said there is a constant struggle for the redds during spawning time.....Which is not fairing in the favour of the NATIVE to the area brook trout and coasters .....My biggest worry is that someday some idiot is gonna brainstorm the idea of getting them introduced to Lake Nipigon ....God Forbid !!!!!

Seppi ...... Long live the Brook Trout

[NoUseForAName_GW 18]

i caught a salmon outside LTB last week that had a rt ventral fin clipped

i just assumed it was the salmon assosiation that had done it, dose the salmon assosiation not clip fry before it releases them?

[Guest KypeRipper]

water levels damage the plant growth, affect the limnology from banks that have caved in the pasts years so you can put hydro in your notes and point to them as well before you talk about the derby damaging the salmon fishery lol...... with no penalty to hydro if they fall below or above the water marks set in the water management plan etc and there are other species in the lower nip below the alex dam....... that have been well you know just go to the derby or don't put in bad remarks before you eat the pie lol.....

[Guest KypeRipper]

Thanx for the reply GC 54

Last years derby of 60 boats -- only 23 salmon were caught and weighed -- so that would be approx. 1/3 of the entrants

and all the salmon that was brought in were either smoked or pickled

WHAT DO YA KNOW -- NO WASTED SALMON

[arvey 154]

just this past spring i was working in the port elgin area,and i heard the same comment as dano's in reguards to size and numbers. i think there is a few other factors that figure in than just derbies. survival rate is 1,salmon are like any other speices of fish. you could have a million fish spawn and out of that what would be the survival rate? you have to figure in cormarants, pelicans, along with other fish such as ruff that are eating machines and we've never had in this area. the smelt run is not what it used to be around here,and that's a food source for everything above and below the surface. i'm not a lake superior fisherman,but i do remember that laketrout fishing was more common than salmom and out numbered them now it's the other way around.

as far as port elgin area is concerned i watched guys with ice cream pales full fo salmon spawn chumming the water while rainbow fishing now tell me that doesn't have an effect on the population. then i heard stories of how they got the spawn,things like hiring kids to heard the salmon into shallow areas and using shopping carts,all them out of the water and milk them. so all of this has a effect on the system not just the derbies.

just my 2 cents worth.

arvey

[jiggin rap 4]

First I would like to address a few comments from the above posts:

“I think we need some scientific data to prove that there is damage being done to the fishery by river anglers of even derbies before we can say anything”

- Agreed. The derby organizers should have to prove through scientific data that there derby has no negative effect on the populations of spawning Chinooks and other species that are present in the river during this time. Maybe they should spend some of that cabbage they are yanking in from potentially exploiting a resource.

“Is there enough scientific data to even suggest that this is a sustainable fishery without the efforts of the salmon association”

-Huh? Then where are all these salmon that enter the Nipigon River each fall coming from? The Salmon Association is taking fish from this self sustaining population (Nipigon River) and distributing them in a different portion of the lake. The relocation may contribute to a potential enhanced lake fishery in the Thunder Bay Harbour Region. It terms of reproduction, they are taking fish from a spawning environment in which they have genetically been accustomed to and planting them in the Harbour. It is doubtful that these fish will every reproduce naturally.

Ok let’s make this painfully clear,

Out of all the North Shore, how many rivers are suitable and successful for breeding Chinook salmon?

In our region, I would be surprised if less than 80% of mature Chinook salmon spawned in the Nipigon River. As everyone knows the Nipigon has an unsurpassable barrier which is Alexander Dam. As a general rule, migratory species will migrate up to an unsurpassable barrier and drop back to suitable spawning habitat. Judging by all the gravel immediate downstream of the dam, a large portion of the spawning Chinooks are very concentrated. So how could you have fishing tournaments on these fragile areas?

People may argue that once Chinooks are in the river they do not feed and makes them less vulnerable. Although most Chinooks are caught out of aggression, the very aggressive nature of Chinooks makes them almost as vulnerable as regular feeding habits. With such a large concentration of Chinooks and increased anglers there is a good chance a crank bait will evoke a spawning salmon to hit.

Relating to the fish pursued in the lake: Fish in the lake are way less concentrated than in the river. Also, fish of all year classes are targeted by fisherman. Smaller fish retained in the lake through angling are fish that may never have reached maturity through natural mortality.

For conversations sake let’s say that one percent of the salmon that hatched in the river, survived five years in the lake, mature and return to the Nipigon River to spawn. So that small percentage is responsible for carrying on the future existence of the population because after the spawn they die. Now let’s have a derby on this river which concentrates the angling pressure, where the largest concentration of spawning Chinooks exists. Doesn’t that sound crazy? Besides increasing the pressure of angling on such a fragile area of spawning Chinooks, it also focuses on taking the strongest wild genetics by endorsing the prize for the largest fish. On a typical day not everyone is geared toward keeping the largest fish they catch.

It would be way more sporting to have a derby on the lower portions of the river (i.e. Below Lake Helen) to catch fish that are moving through.

As for pointing fingers at Hydro and other factors, why not focus on the facts at hand and do something before it’s too late.

Rap

[Guest lacman]

water levels damage the plant growth, affect the limnology from banks that have caved in the pasts years so you can put hydro in your notes and point to them as well before you talk about the derby damaging the salmon fishery lol...... with no penalty to hydro if they fall below or above the water marks set in the water management plan etc and there are other species in the lower nip below the alex dam....... that have been well you know just go to the derby or don't put in bad remarks before you eat the pie lol.....

Just for the record, the water levels on the Nipigon River are decided jointly by OPG as well as the MNR. As for no penalties for going over or under on water levels, that is also incorrect. Although I am not sure about the river, OPG and the MNR work within compliance limits for lake Nipigon and if these limits are exceeded OPG faces hefty fines/penalties. The river levels are determined by upstream lake levels as well as precipitation levels. Salmon spawning also is a factor on water levels on the river in the fall.

We should all do the proper research before spitting off the 'facts'

[Some Old Guy 968]

*********Last years derby of 60 boats -- only 23 salmon were caught and weighed -- so that would be approx. 1/3 of the entrants

and all the salmon that was brought in were either smoked or pickled

WHAT DO YA KNOW -- NO WASTED SALMON ***********

Just my opinion.

But if you fish the Nipigon for salmon, Please raise your hands if you release every salmon you catch every time you go there. I know guys who catch and keep way more salmon in a season than this derby caught last year.

There are tons of salmon caught each year by anglers that never ever get to spawn as they are eaten. So based on last year, you are going to tell me that 23 salmon bah..... lets say every boat weighed in one salmon then the fishery would collapse? In any given season I bet it's the same guys going every weekend that do way more "damage" than this tourney will ever do. Shall the anglers using the river the most fork over "cabbage" to get scientific data too?

This is not to mention all the salmon caught in the big lake. These fish will never get to spawn. The salmon are there for what reason.........??? To catch.......... or to look at?

Roger

[canadianyanke 7]

there an exotic species that out compete native fish. The more kept the better. I rather have people keeping and eating salmon then a 22 inch brook trout or any other native fish. And about the derby, The derby pays out 100% of the prize pool and ask anyone who was in the derby last year out of the 60 boats 50 of them got prizes almost worth there entry fee so using "maybe they should cough up some of that coin that they make and do a study" is silly.

[Mykiss 28]

there an exotic species that out compete native fish. The more kept the better. I rather have people keeping and eating salmon then a 22 inch brook trout or any other native fish. And about the derby, The derby pays out 100% of the prize pool and ask anyone who was in the derby last year out of the 60 boats 50 of them got prizes almost worth there entry fee so using "maybe they should cough up some of that coin that they make and do a study" is silly.

Canadianyanke.......excuse me for getting a we bit upset but before you talk about introduced salmonids out competing native species do a little homework on the subject. You might quickly realize that competition is minimal and the benefits of the introduced salmonids outweighs any loss from interactions ie. increase of nutrient loading from salmon carcasses, egg loss and swim up fry (tasty tidbits for a hungry brook trout)......plus different life history strategies and juvenile habitat preference. Keep in mind we have a wonderful and diversified salmonid fishery in Lake Superior (unique to the Great Lakes) that is self sustaining (solely supported by natural reproduction). All species will continue to do well as long as we manage exploitation (harvest) and habitat.

[seppi 19]

Keep in mind we have a wonderful and diversified salmonid fishery in Lake Superior (unique to the Great Lakes) that is self sustaining (solely supported by natural reproduction).

That word Diversified,should not have been in your sentence Mykiss,for if you go back and read ,the only salmon that is Native to the Great Lakes was the Atlantic Salmon not the Pacific Salmon and subsequent sub-species also introduced !!!

Seppi

[Guest KypeRipper]

There are only 8 spots left --- sooooooo

To those of you in the derby -- good luck and thank you

and to the rest -- i enjoy the opinions as everyone is entitled

Thanks to those for the support --much appreciated

**Something to think about** -- Maybe all launches that access the Nipigon river should charge launching fees -- to PAY for this "scientific study" of the salmon

that way everyone can contribute to the study.

[canadianyanke 7]

Canadianyanke.......excuse me for getting a we bit upset but before you talk about introduced salmonids out competing native species do a little homework on the subject. You might quickly realize that competition is minimal and the benefits of the introduced salmonids outweighs any loss from interactions ie. increase of nutrient loading from salmon carcasses, egg loss and swim up fry (tasty tidbits for a hungry brook trout)......plus different life history strategies and juvenile habitat preference. Keep in mind we have a wonderful and diversified salmonid fishery in Lake Superior (unique to the Great Lakes) that is self sustaining (solely supported by natural reproduction). All species will continue to do well as long as we manage exploitation (harvest) and habitat.

Your obviously bias towards Salmon because everything you said is argued from a pro salmon POV. I can do the same for brook trout.

[Some Old Guy 968]

Ummmm Please do not get me wrong here, Canadianyankee but Mykiss might be the best person for this subject. I don't think he's bias towards any species.

There is much info regarding the species as he stated.

Roger

[Monks 164]

Your obviously bias towards Salmon because everything you said is argued from a pro salmon POV. I can do the same for brook trout. I can do the samething but I wont.

All right I will finally bite. I am like a bass on a live worm eventually... CHOMP! Some great discussion as always on the site and some great opinions based on scientific and non-scientific facts. I think the matter at hand is the idea of a catch and kill tournament. Yes I have expressed previous opinions about this related to another issue just to ensure everyone knows where this post is coming from. As a bass angler this is insane. As a steelheader crazy, and as a walleye angler moderately acceptible if not OK. Do you see where I am going. We have placed our own personal values on each species of fish we harvest. For some catching and keeping a steelhead is alright. I will admit one steelhead a spring is great for my family. The odd bass not so because personally I cleaned so many of the stinky things on LOTW I am happy to let them go. To me they are terrible table fair to others great so go ahead eat a few,yes a FEW. Now I am not promoting this event but am not saying it should not go on either. Who am I to say. The argument for introduced vs native in my opinion is over, LONG OVER. There is no longer such a thing as a native species in this river ecosytem, our previous generations have taken care of that. Our world has changed people, and we have changed it. Once an ecosystem is changed by man there are two options and only TWO. Let the new ecosystem run its course or manage it. I do believe we all agree that to let it run its course means no netting, no angling and no interference. Thats not going to happen so we intervene by way of The salmon association, the steelheaders, the OMNR and the general public and the angling limitations.

So does this event hurt the ecosystem? How can we ever know because we are managing it for our needs not the ecosystems. More fish means we are doing a good job, less fish bad. That is a poor barometer. Unfortunately we are reactive all of the time. If we were proactive fish stocks would always be good and that has never happened. I think what is important once again is that while fishing ANYWHERE on our waterways that you truly appreciate what we have. I am still bringing my bass buddies from LOTW up here for salmon and they think that is crazy to catch salmon here! Yes the salmon are all released except one annully for the BBQ and we catch quite a few. I believe we have the single greatest diversification of natural resources at our door step and am happy to help preserve that as best as I can.

Come on people work with each other.

Proactive is better than reactive, lets try that TBF!

[Guest Nice Cast]

After sitting on the fence for along time, and knowing alot of the members of TBF, I finally joined TBF. Well said MYKISS, and thumbs up to Monks, after all the heat he has taken lately. In my view the salmon and steelhead and brook trout fishing and in the Nipigon river is very strong and quit possibly world class , and yes most rivers along the north shore could probably support a fall salmon run as well if they were introduced. If I may say, MYKISS and other fisheries technicians and biologists have more data and facts to proove this, than the general sportsfisherman who have their own opinions about this. Living on the outflow of the Nipigon river I fish this river alot, and have caught Salmon and Steelhead ,Lakers and Brook trout in the river from ice out to freeze up, keeping a few fish for consumption and to get the spawn I use for steelheading. I agree about the Atlantic salmon being native to lake Superior, and would love to see this species re-introduced into the lake in place of chinock salmon, but not at the cost of trying to introduce them back into lake Ontario, which the gov't spent millions and millions, then there is lake Huron, where steelhead stocking by the gov't has been reduced or stopped , to put more lake trout in to the lake. In parts of FMZ 6 bass are considerd an evasive species, yes they are fun to catch,slow in growth and in my opinion to horribly old to eat . The MNR should take lessons from B.C., where there is a set limit per angler per year for the number of salmon and steelhead each angler can keep. I have also caught a fair number of big(throw back) pike and walleye on the lower nipigon that I'm sure are not fussy on what species they eat, changing of the pike slot size should be looked at and revised, for lake Nipigon, and the river.

Just my two cents

[Guest TerryK]

i caught a salmon outside LTB last week that had a rt ventral fin clipped

i just assumed it was the salmon assosiation that had done it, dose the salmon assosiation not clip fry before it releases them?

Are you sure this wasn't a Rainbow? There is a rainbow trout study going on locally and part of it is a right ventral clip (2009).

[Guest TerryK]

That word Diversified,should not have been in your sentence Mykiss,for if you go back and read ,the only salmon that is Native to the Great Lakes was the Atlantic Salmon not the Pacific Salmon and subsequent sub-species also introduced !!!

Seppi

diversified: –adjective

1. distinguished by various forms or by a variety of objects: diversified activity.

2. distributed among or producing several types; varied: diversified investments.

native: –adjective

1. of indigenous origin, growth, or production

2. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the indigenous inhabitants of a place or country

3. found in nature rather than produced artificially

Bit of a difference.